ANOTHER school shooting?!

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Apparently not... three schools this week allowed walk in visitors with tragic consequences!
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Like I said, in theory. This needs to be addressed.

Think Flight #93! I mean this literally... classroom teachers at the local level need to address the issue of an intruder and plan some sort of response... not capitulation but reaction. Every teacher should discuss the issue of an intruder and possible means and measures of response... simply letting an intruder have their way with students is not acceptable...
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Apples and oranges. No means to escape Flight 93 existed. While I agree that teachers need to communicate with students regarding intruders, active discussions about or training in self defense probably creates a legal nightmare for the schools, though it might be worth it in the long run. However, for instance, Johnnie attacks Billie with a yardstick. His defense: "The teacher taught me how to do it." That's the stuff that lawyers' dreams are made of ...
 
Leif said:
Apples and oranges. No means to escape Flight 93 existed. While I agree that teachers need to communicate with students regarding intruders, active discussions about or training in self defense probably creates a legal nightmare for the schools, though it might be worth it in the long run. However, for instance, Johnnie attacks Billie with a yardstick. His defense: "The teacher taught me how to do it." That's the stuff that lawyers' dreams are made of ...
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Classrooms are suppose to teach children about life... the sad fact of life today is that classrooms are a potential target and something needs to be done. Why are fire alarms installed in schools? To protect students. Why are fire drills conducted? To protect students. Therefore, a fact of life today is the fact that intruders in schools are a proven threat. Schools need to respond. Armed guards. Classroom-level response. And yes... self defense by the children themselves.

"Creates a legal nightmare"? Who the hell cares? How does four dead girls sound to you if you are a parent? If "Johnnie" jamed that yardstick into the eye of an intruder it might just help... We shouldn't be teaching passive measures to an active threat...

I do realize the limitations here with youth... but rolling over and doing absolutely nothing is unacceptable.
 
I do realize the limitations here with youth... but rolling over and doing absolutely nothing is unacceptable.
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I never said it was acceptable, in fact, quite the opposite. However, the likelihood that Johnnie will go ballistic with the yardstick, and that the school may be seen as contributing to the problem, seems greater, to me at least, than the likelihood of the incidents in question.

However, fire alarms are installed for a reason. Maybe some greater degree of instruction is needed. However, I think that a line between teaching children how to react properly to a threat and how to attack people needs to be drawn. Schools don't usually teach the children how to use the fire extinguishers, to use your analogy - they teach them how to exit the building.
 
This is definitely a tough subject to tackle. I don't think we will ever be any closer to a solution until one of these situations occurs where the gunman is taken down by a student or teacher by any means possible. Then people might learn to start thinking outside the box.

The worst part of it is that this crap still happens in societies that have banned guns (do a search on the words "japan school massacre"). As bad as it is having some crazy with a gun running around a school, for some reason a crazy with a butcher knife scares me even more.
 
FWIW, I haven't heard anything in the media about calling for more control. I'm a little surprised, but not a peep. (I'm talking about mainstream media.)

Since the Columbine shooting, a huge number of schools have changed or instituted policies to reduce the likelyhood of a school shooting. I live in NH, and virtually all schools here lock their doors after students arrive. Most schools now have "resource officers" (aka policemen) inside during school hours.

This particular madman had no connection with the Amish (that we know of) and there is rational (IMO) speculation that he chose the Amish school precisely because it would be open and unguarded.

I used to work in Lancaster and drove through Amish country roads for 45 minutes each way from home. These folks have carved out their own society within ours. The farm hundreds of acres using horses/oxen, and eschew most modern conveniences. They are sitting ducks for madmen.
 
Violence conference

Funny how these things happen just before things like the Violence conference this week in which The Prez will be attending. I personally think about the movie Manchurian Candidate when these things happen. The timing is uncanny.
 
Yes, its odd, but sad.

I think the biggest "conspiracy" here is called EVIL, and involved in are such ignoble personalities as this killer,hitler, the shooters at columbine.

Condolences to the families.
 
This is an awful tragedy. My prayers go out to the families. In the meantime, something needs to be done. I certainly do not claim to have the answer, however, it seems that schools need to be even more proactive about identifying those students that are *at risk* and get them the help and resources necessary to prevent these atrocities. I know that my state issued an *anti-bullying* policy that mandates that any form of abuse must not be tolerated by teachers, staff, etc. I'm not sure that this will solve the problem, however, hopefully it is a step in the right direction.

With respect to keeping the schools safe, my church, where I teach, has a crisis procedure. If we know there is an intruder, for example, all the kids are required to stand in front of the chalk board. That way, an intruder will look into the classroom and not see anyone. It is obviously not perfect, but it's something. Hopefully, all schools have something like this in place or will soon.

Sorry for the long post. I just feel awful reading about these deaths and I wish there was a simple answer to protect those in our schools.

-M
 
"I don't think we will ever be any closer to a solution until one of these situations occurs where the gunman is taken down by a student or teacher by any means possible. Then people might learn to start thinking outside the box."--Huchahucha

I hope you're right about thinking outside the box, Huchahucha, but experience doesn't make me very hopeful of it. The resolution of the school shooting in Pearl, MS, didn't seem to convince anyone of anything, unfortunately. Did it not garner attention because the shooter surrendered immediately when confronted by the Assistant Principal armed with his personal firearm (a Commander, IIRC), instead of initiating a final violent encounter? I don't know.

I'm an educator, and I wish I knew what the solution was. I fear this type of situation may be becoming endemic in our society, for reasons which have nothing to do with firearms. I hope someone smarter than me comes up with a solution, and that it works. :(
 
To me, this one is starting to look more and more like a copy of the incident in Colorado last week. In that one you had a pedophile who figured out a way to molest a bunch of girls before committing suicide. In this latest one you have a guy who thinks he's a pedophile using the same technique.

I say "thinks" he's a pedophile because according to the latest news reports he claims to have molested some female relatives around 20 years ago (he would have been 12 years old). He recently started having dreams where he wanted to do it again.

In either case it is still mind boggling that an individual would willingly commit so much destruction instead of simply asking for help. Or if that is not an option, have some dignity and go finish yourself off in private.
 
I think CCW in schools is the worst idea ever. Let me tell you something about public schools...95% of all administration are complete idiots. If I thought for a second that one of my teachers had a gun, I would run like crazy.

Cops make mistakes and they are trained extensivley. Most teachers aren't even good at teaching; Please do NOT give them a gun! I don't have the answers and I feel horrible for all the familys that have to to go through this. If someone went to my school and killed my friends I couldn't even imagine...what a sick and horrible thing. Anyways about the only thing I can think of is to start wearing body armour when I go to school. no, seriously.
 
No offense, but do some of you ever think that this has been studied and focused on the factors that led the shooter to do this? Do you think that we have a handle on it that goes beyond the purile rants about liberals and the DNC?

You are looking at a fairly well known model of suicide behavior and the interaction of priming of aggressive/sucidial ideation from media reporting. It has very little to due with the RKBA, gun rights or the like. I suppose some folks will start to curse out the Amish or the school children for not being armed.

Too busy to write a lecture now - but I wish some folks might think about what is known rather than going off on half baked theories which express their own problems, needs to express how they would be a commando, or paranoia.

I heard a Columbine parent start to rant that this happened because there isn't God in the Schools and we allow abortion.

The incident became a projective test for nutso explanations.

:mad: - BTW - we need a more expressive anger 'smile'.
 
huchahucha said:
I don't think we will ever be any closer to a solution until one of these situations occurs where the gunman is taken down by a student or teacher by any means possible.
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That's happened already. When it has happened, according to studies done on news coverage, it receives little to no attention from the news media that should be making it clear to the people that armed resistance fares better than hoping these attacks don't occur, and cowering behind flimsy doors when they do.

Armed resistors have ended several standoffs/rampages at schools -- like that law school shooting where the african student went on a killing spree, or that principal who had to go back to his car to get a .45 to stop a student shooting...

The problem is not that average, non-police citizens are not stopping such shootings with guns of their own -- it's that the media is desperate to avoid giving the public the perception that armed resistance is a viable solution.


-azurefly
 
jrklaus said:
I'm an educator, and I wish I knew what the solution was. I fear this type of situation may be becoming endemic in our society, for reasons which have nothing to do with firearms. I hope someone smarter than me comes up with a solution, and that it works.
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I sympathize with your sentiment as an educator but we need to do something. Why are our airplanes at the airports better protected than our children? Why are federal buildings better protected than our schools?

It is time someone stood up to ask when will the educators demand national security for our classrooms? Will it take a Senator's son or a Congressman's daughter dead for action this day?
 
I'm thinking that we will see armed terrorists take over a school and holding hundreds of kids and teachers hostage before anyone wakes up to this.

I am not of the view that we should be making all of our schools akin to airports, with armed patrols and that. I'm of the view that we should re-allow those licensed to carry firearms to do so in schools, be they teachers on duty, principals, aides, or parents.

No one has to feel that these people would be obligated to roam around the school once a threat has entered, hunting down the killers Rambo-like. What I imagine is armed teachers barricaded behind the locked classroom door (once an alarm is given), with students hiding there, and the teacher is prepared to give armed response to anyone (who is not a cop) breaching the door to the classroom. It's a whole lot better than just hoping the guy doesn't come through the door, and having no plan for after that, right?


-azurefly
 
Will it take a Senator's son or a Congressman's daughter dead for action this day?
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THEIR kids will have armed Secret Service agents watching over them.


I'm thinking that we will see armed terrorists take over a school and holding hundreds of kids and teachers hostage before anyone wakes up to this.
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That happened in Russia a while back. I don't recall it ending well.:(

EDIT: Here's a link to more on that school situation in Russia.

http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2006/09/two-years-ago-today.html
 
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I am not of the view that we should be making all of our schools akin to airports, with armed patrols and that.
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Even if you were of that view, it's not financially possible.

With a medium-sized town of 200,000 people, there will be about 25 schools in that school district. If you have half a dozen cops per school, that gives you 150 more cops for your PD to hire. 150 x $50,000 gives you $7,500,000 in additional wages... add to that dispatching and management and equipment such as radios, guns and cruisers, you get nearly $10million annually. To do this in the whole US would cost us about $15billion dollars.

And then the terrorists/crazies/whatever would find a different soft target.
 
My school http://www.pctc.k12.oh.us/ wants to put in metal detectors to "make sure that a shooting doesn't happen" so I think what if they start shooting then come in (like columbine) I wonder when I will no longer be able to have my slag hammer for my welding class anymore, good thing I'm graduating this year. Hey I have an idea to prevent this that most criticize me for even saying ARM THE TEACHERS!
 
The more this sort of thing happens the more it will seem 'normal' to the wackos. Unfortunately, there's no way to crawl inside people's heads and find the evil intent lurking there. There will always be sick people out there willing to take their own frustrations and sick fantasies out on defenseless people. The problem as I see it is that we've created easy targets.
The scum who walked into the Amish school chose it because it was easy. The pervert who walked into the Colorado school and assaulted those girls did it because it was easy. In both cases the goblins told the males to walk out... and they did just like good little sheep.
The teen in Las Vegas was confronted by a security guard and ran off without hurting anyone. The kid who walked into a school with a shotgun and a pistol had the shotgun taken away from him by a janitor who fought back. The kid managed to kill the principal but it would have been a lot worse if not for the janitor.
Anybody see the pattern?
 
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