An Expert Says No to Laser Sights

The military gives us a sizeable population to sample from when evaluating the usefulness of new widgets. We routinely train non-gunnies (the majority of initial entry troops) to effectively employ lasers in combat. The overwhelmingly positive results would tend to recommend their use by civilians as well. YMMV.

There are several problems with adapting lasers for civilian use.

One problem is the cost and availability of quality gear. The junk coming off the boat from Asia simply is not suitable for most applications. CT makes a great product and is well worth the money for people who are serious about SD, but they run about half the cost of the weapon or more. The military grade stuff for long guns runs more than the cost of the long gun typically.

Another problem is that it is a trade off. Not everyone wants to make that trade.
 
Another problem is that it is a trade off.

Not sure what you mean. Care to expand?

Agree with your comment about getting what you pay for. CTs are not cheap, but they work. I'd never recommend mounting knock-off junk on any weapon.

So, just out of curiosity, has anyone been on the receiving end of a laser dot on the chest? What went through your mind?

Yes. "S@# of a B$%@*!!

...but would you take a chance and continue or try to roll out of the line of fire?

I moved. Apparently it worked (action beats reaction)...
 
The value & merit(s) of laser aiming systems, white lights...

Some firearm/tactics forum members badmouth or put-down the use of laser-sights or laser aiming units. They use insults like retard or nerd but to me these add-ons have some practical value if used correctly & IAW the design/company policy.
Laser-sights: red or green are not a replacement to proper marksmanship methods or aiming/firing under stress using combat tested skill training.
I'd add a green dot laser & a white light to a protection or duty pistol. I'm 100% sure a armed security supervisor or maybe a sworn LE officer would be critical but those comments would be based on 2nd hand knowledge or a lack of training with the devices.
Many working cops/security guards/corrections officers can get "stuck" in the 1970s, 1980s, or even the 1990s. :(
It's 2010. New products & weapons help protect & augment a armed professional or service member or armed citizen's safety.
What irks me is the LEO/soldier/security guard/etc who wears or uses a piece of gear or equipment incorrectly then spins around and trashes it.
Go to sites like www.Crimsontrace.com www.surefire.com www.lasermax.com www.Blackhawk.com .

Ignorance is bliss but stupidity will get you killed.
ClydeF
 
Certainly no insult intended. I can absolutely guarantee that I'd be the last person on this board to slight US Army Joes (or any of my brothers and sisters from the other services).

Especially since I happen to be one of those Joes.

The military gives us a sizeable population to sample from when evaluating the usefulness of new widgets. We routinely train non-gunnies (the majority of initial entry troops) to effectively employ lasers in combat. The overwhelmingly positive results would tend to recommend their use by civilians as well. YMMV.
__________________
Figure The Odds...
Thank you for your service to our country. I didn't mean that as a slam against you. Average joes going in, yes Turned into the finest young men and women in our country, absolutely!!!
I just don't know if the average civilian is trained well enough with the laser just by attaching one to their firearm, and thinking that it is the cure all for defensive shooting. It is a useful tool in many situations, but needs to be learned as much as any other.
 
I love my crimson trace on my S&W J frame.

with some snap caps I was able to take nearly all the movement out of my trigger pull with dry fire practice.
 
Not sure what you mean. Care to expand?

Open sites are reliable 100% of the time. Lasers are reliable only slightly less than that. Some people don't like things that are not 100% reliable and rely on things like batteries and electrical switches even if the overall result is a net improvement.
 
lasers can ruin your stealth and could be hard to find outside in bright light.

i prefer iron sights on pistols.

if you do use lasers,
i think lasers are only any good on pistols because a pistol with laser can still fit in a standard holster ,unlike a pistol with red dot sight.

i prefer red dot sights on rifles/carbines, there is no point in useing a laser on a rifle/carbine,
red dot sights are quicker than lasers.
 
Experts tell me not to do a lot of things I do on a daily basis, so phooey to the experts.

I can see lasers being abused or substituted for a basic ability aim a handgun, but I can also see them having some very practical applications. I wouldn't mind having a laser, maybe just for practice and for the 'cool' factor.

Besides, while a laser may not be the best thing in an all-out firefight in the middle of lord knows where, I do rather think the average home intruder is going to soil his armor when he sees that lil' red dot right over his chest.
 
I just skimmed through the thread so I apologize if others covered what I'm about to say...

I think the comments from the "expert" in the first post are laughable.

You want to know what some real experts have to say, check out the opinions of guys like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and Ernest Langdon (just to name a few who feel that a laser is a very worthwhile addition to a handgun).

Here's an article from Vickers just to get you started.
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/crimson-trace-lasergrips/
 
Open sites are reliable 100% of the time. Lasers are reliable only slightly less than that. Some people don't like things that are not 100% reliable and rely on things like batteries and electrical switches even if the overall result is a net improvement.

Gotcha. Makes sense and I agree.

I think the question becomes one of proven reliability among particular brands and models of target aquisition devices. Not all widgets are created equal and only quality gear (showing proven reliability) gets the nod for hard use.

For instance, after many years of using Aimpoint Comp Ms (M68), I regard them as being almost practically reliable as iron sights. Given time, the unproven "new" eventually becomes the new "old reliable" (see MLeake's earlier comments on digital vs. analog aviation cockpit instrumentation). Todays high performance fighter aircraft and passenger stuffed airliners are completely reliant on electronics. Although things like iron sights (reliable, simple, and cheap) rarely go away, many of today's bolt action hunting rifles come from the factory equipped for glass only (no irons). I think that lasers will eventually become standard on a lot of CCW/HD firearms as they inevitably evolve into smaller, more reliable, and cheaper devices.

I remember receiving the initial SOPMOD I kit issue on my ODA back in the early '90s. We got several Pelican cases filled with (then) exotic widgets to include various white tactical lights, Trijicon Reflex tritium dot sights, some M68s, PEQ-2s, etc..

Not enough items were included in the kits to issue one of each per man and nobody was particularly familiar with them. We gradually added the different items to our weapons on a trial basis. Everyone trusted irons. Nobody trusted things that ran on batteries and circuits. After a time, we developed opinions.

White Taclights? Good. Trijicon Reflex sights? Bombproof and streamlined...but the dot was almost never bright enough. M68 Aimpoints? We initially assumed they were "CQB Only" and only gradually began to appreciate them for all distances. IR PEQs and PVS-14s...we began to see the light...and own the night.

Subsequent fieldings brought us ACOGs, ELCANs, upgraded PEQs, better NVDs, ATPIALs, EOTECHs, improved M68s, PVS-22s, etc.

By the time we took the gear to the Balkans, Africa, and to Afghanistan in late 2001, we knew what the kit would do and appreciated the overmatch it offered against our opponents. Certain items got well deserved reputations for reliability (M68 CCO). Other items didn't hold up so well (EOTECHs). IR/Patrol Lasers proved invaluable for night engagements. Today, nobody on a team would willingly conduct a mission without one.

Remembering when I thought M16A1 Promethium (Tritium) front sight posts were cutting edge in the late 1970s or that M68s seemed cutting edge in the early 1990s...I almost laugh when I hear today's young troopers ruefully complain about "Old School" M68 CCO Aimpoints :rolleyes:.

Just like white tactical lights and tritium sights, lasers expand the potential engagement envelope across lighting conditions where using iron sights might be problematic. With practice, lasers can provide increased engagement speed and hit probability. They also provide an instinctive means to place hits on targets when a shooter suffers from target fixation and is unable to focus on his/her irons.

IMHO, if Crimson Trace laser grips cost half as much, they'd sell five times as many. Until retail costs come down, they will never be regarded as "required" accessories by the general shooting population. And the continued justification for not owning them will be a cost / benefit equation showing an imbalance in performance gain vs. price...aggravated by the fact that few folks actually have any experience with them...because they cost too much. A classic self-licking ice-cream cone. :D

That equation may change in the next decade as a couple of generations of military trained laser shooters become lifelong mainstream gunshop customers.
 
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I have always said that if I ever have to use my hand gun I hope the other person is using a Laser

This statement makes me question everything that came before or after it. It sounds like a quote directly from the book "Favorite Sayings of the He-man Blow Hard".

Laser sights can provide a quick quality control check of your iron sight picture prior to firing. I think those of us who are older (I'm 47) and learned to shoot with open sights only are at an advantage to someone who learns to shoot with the laser as the primary method of sighting the gun.

I instinctively look for the front sight and then see the dot---if the battery dies then I've still acquired a sight picture before I ever know that. Somebody who is used to looking for the dot first might get flustered if it doesn't show up.

Lasers: I can live without them, but I'd rather live with them.
 
I personally don't care much for lasers because of something I was finding I was doing when using one...

I would actually get slower, a LOT slower, in my firing with a laser because I would become fixated on the dot and trying to keep it still (which everyone knows is impossible) or trying to line it up for that absolutely perfect shot.

Once I realized what I was doing, I kept trying to break it, and wasn't able to. Every time I got into a high speed competitive situation, I'd start fixating on the dot, and my times would go WAY down.

So, I ditched the lasers and stick with iron sights.

Now that my eyes are starting to head into middle age and presbyopia is becoming a big factor, I may well try lasers again.
 
IMHO, if Crimson Trace laser grips cost half as much, they'd sell five times as many. Until retail costs come down, they will never be regarded as "required" accessories by the general shooting population. And the continued justification for not owning them will be a cost / benefit equation showing an imbalance in performance gain vs. price...aggravated by the fact that few folks actually have any experience with them...because they cost too much.

They could have made a bunch more money on license than with exclusive production. But it is their patent so they can do what they want.


Remembering when I thought M16A1 Promethium (Tritium) front sight posts were cutting edge in the late 1970s or that M68s seemed cutting edge in the early 1990s...I almost laugh when I hear today's young troopers ruefully complain about "Old School" M68 CCO Aimpoints

Most ODA's are mounting ACOGs these days. The m68 is pretty much standard issue to everyone else with an M4, however you do see a few EOTechs and a sprinkling of other CCO's mounted, often purchased by the soldier, who has an AR at home. A few guys have M16's. Talk about griping...:)

I would actually get slower, a LOT slower, in my firing with a laser because I would become fixated on the dot and trying to keep it still (which everyone knows is impossible) or trying to line it up for that absolutely perfect shot.

Once I realized what I was doing, I kept trying to break it, and wasn't able to. Every time I got into a high speed competitive situation, I'd start fixating on the dot, and my times would go WAY down.

hmmm. I can see where this would be a problem for some people, especially competition shooters who tend to be an anal retentive lot (meant only in the nicest of ways).
 
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I personally don't care much for lasers because of something I was finding I was doing when using one...

Yes, but you're a vampire. Everyone knows you're afraid of the light!

This won't make much sense tomorrow when he's no longer a vampire and I'm no longer a zombie. A post that only makes sense one day a year!
 
Has anyone tested IR lasers on vampires?

I recall that Jack Crow's team used UV floodlights to some effect against Masters...

On another note: If you had a handheld laser with enough watts...you could possibly cause a zombie's head to open up like like a steamed clam...or popcorn :)
 
So, just out of curiosity, has anyone been on the receiving end of a laser dot on the chest? What went through your mind? What would go through your mind if you were in a gun fight and your enemy flashed your face and then dotted your chest with the laser and yelled for you to drop your weapon and surrender?

Besides, while a laser may not be the best thing in an all-out firefight in the middle of lord knows where, I do rather think the average home intruder is going to soil his armor when he sees that lil' red dot right over his chest.

Imo, the idea that a bad guy is going to give up the fight because he spots a red dot dancing around on his chest is a thoroughly bogus one. Though I've never been in a bona fide shoot-out, in my thirty years as a le officer, I've had the occasion to train a pistol on the torso of more than a couple of felons and I have never seen anyone look down at his chest for any reason. They (like you) will focus on the threat, not on their (your) nipples. It seems to me that this course of action (looking at the threat instead of watching your chest area) is an even more likely behavior if one is engaged in a gun fight. I mean, ask yourself: If you are trading shots with someone hell-bent on killing you, are you really going to check your chest from time to time to see if you've been targeted with a laser? If not, do you really believe your bg opponent will act any differently?
 
I would actually get slower, a LOT slower, in my firing with a laser because I would become fixated on the dot

This has been my experience also, Mr. Irwin, but, like you, with advancing age and the attendant eyesight degradation, I'm giving laser sights another look-see (sorry, couldn't resist the pun :D).
 
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