An Expert Says No to Laser Sights

I’ve always wondered if in a high-stress situation like that if you would really have the time/focus to find that little red dot or align your sights.

Yes. You do have time to find your sights (although not everyone does, which is a whole 'nother discusssion).

Most combat troops today routinely use holographic red dot and/or visible or IR Lasers to successfully prosecute fights. Finding & focusing on a projected dot under stress is not problematic and within most folks capabilities.

However...

I've observed that folks intially using visible lasers tend to "hunt" the dot, slowing down a little while attempting to get it placed optimally on target. With practice, this process speeds up.

As previously mentioned, lasers are invaluable tools for:

1. Dry fire practice and coaching corrections
2. As an aid to zeroing multiple co-witnessed optics
3. Live fire target engagement (with practice)
4. Marking targets for supporting fire by friendlies
5. Effective close range fire from weak firing positions (hip, weak-hand, etc.)
6. Point Shooting

Lasers are not passive sytems and can definitely give away your position if you sweep your opponent and don't fire. Under conditions of dust or smoke (caused by pyrotechnics, fire, weapon muzzleblast raising dust from prone, or dust raised by bullet strikes) you will see the red/geen trace (back to your location) so beloved of hollywood action flick directors. Lasers appear to be searchlights leading back to you to anyone using night vision devices.

Some folks are more natural/intuitive when it comes to using lasers; some not so much.

Like tactical lights, they are not for everyone, not for every situation, and not for universal carry on all weapons.

Still...a nice option to have in your bag of tricks.

I use lasers (red/green/IR) on my issue long guns. I don't own a laser for use on any of my personal handguns. Go figure.
 
I can see for some people the laser makes sense. Those who are so far sighted regular sights are impossible, especially for precision shooting at a distance.

I use a laserized Glock airsoft for training. It's an airsoft 26 I took the insides out and superglued a laser and the pressure swich under the trigger. I find it very good for retention and hip shooting training or shooting in the dark. And it's a painless FOF gun!

But none of my carry guns have lasers.

But again, I can see some people needing them.

Deaf
 
TheBodHiTree said: [This is better than My Bloody Valentine 3D./I]

+1

Moderator, is this thread advancing our knowledge on this topic, or simply recycling what has been said before so many times?

Cordially, Jack
 
Well my brother's, friend's, cousin's neighbor says they are no good and that's good enough for me:p

Seriously, good or bad when I put any of my 3 CT guns up to shoot I see the sight and the dot on the target at the same time. Should it be dark enough for sights not to be as recognizable I'm guessing the dot will still in the right place.

Needed all the time maybe not, never needed not likely so what's the beef as long as they are not the only thing you sight with.

This is like the 9mm .45 debates or Chevy vs Ford or Kilts vs Pants (OK maybe not that but almost as funny.):eek:
 
This article is so blatently flawed that its funny... Go borrow a laser and try it for yourself and then re read this sillyness.....

Why do you suppose almost every infanty soldier has a laser, because its so poor or because it decreases the time it takes to aquire the target and increases accuracy...

Simly silly :barf:
 
Yes. You do have time to find your sights (although not everyone does, which is a whole 'nother discusssion).

Most combat troops today routinely use holographic red dot and/or visible or IR Lasers to successfully prosecute fights.

I wasn't talking about combat troops though, I was musing about the average Joe out there who is being fired up during a commercial break for three and a half men.

Like I said, I'm well aware that the popular opinion is that they are useful and I'm not really saying otherwise because honestly, I don't know.
 
I wasn't talking about combat troops though, I was musing about the average Joe out there who is being fired up during a commercial break for three and a half men.

I agree with your thought, but didn't explain mine well enough.

I was merely pointing out that several hundred thousand folks (average Joes) have already positively proven the concept under fire. Lasers work for them. They can work for you.

How well they work for you is primarily a function of training and your willingness to practice.
 
Another airplane analogy

I learned to fly on round analog (aka "steam gauges") instruments. The T-34C, T-44, and P-3 all had old-school gauges. Each was fairly easy to read; the skill came in developing a scan that allowed the pilot to give each gauge enough attention, without tying up too much time or focus on any one thing.

Worked quite well. Amassed a few thousand hours, in all sorts of weather and environments, on such gear.

Saw the ads in FLYING and other magazines for glass cockpits, with electronic displays, and couldn't see the point. Awfully cluttered looking; seemed like a crutch, etc.

Then I left active duty and started flying passenger jets. As I started training on "glass cockpits," I realized how nice it was to have aircraft attitude, altitude, rate of climb/descent, airspeed and airspeed trends all in one place. For many pilots, the sheer wealth of information in one spot was completely overwhelming - but for those of us who could process it, it was fantastic. With just two screens, I could get all the information listed above, plus have a navigational map, weather radar display, and engine status instrumentation.

I had to work not to overreact to things. On a "steam gauge" airspeed indicator, speed was graduated in 10 knot increments. If I wanted to fly 135 kts, I ballparked the needle between 130 and 140; slight deviations in speed looked very slight on that scale.

OTOH, on the glass display, speed was displayed in both 10 knot lines, but also in a revolving window with 1 knot increments. Small deviations in speed would seem to generate huge, rapid changes in the 1 knot display - it took concerted effort not to change my nose's pitch every time that display started moving.

Same with engine temperature trends, RPM changes, etc. Digital info can make even small deviations look major.

Now, I alternate flying between glass cockpits, and analog cockpits. I can fly either pretty well, and I can see advantages to both. But if you give me a choice, I'll take the glass cockpit every day.

Having more options is generally a good thing, so long as one doesn't become overly dependent on having all of them.

And even when options are available, it's good to know how to operate on just the basics.

But that's really a reflection on training and mindset, not on equipment.
 
I agree with your thought, but didn't explain mine well enough.

I was merely pointing out that several hundred thousand folks (average Joes) have already positively proven the concept under fire. Lasers work for them. They can work for you.

How well they work for you is primarily a function of training and your willingness to practice.
You know what, seeing it worded different I see it clear in your first post now.
 
There are many inconsistencies in the statement by the holster seller, like the ones revealed by carguychris. I would not base any decision for or against a laser sight on a testimonial like the one posted.

YEP. Makes you wonder why Special ops use lasers.
 
I was merely pointing out that several hundred thousand folks (average Joes) have already positively proven the concept under fire. Lasers work for them. They can work for you.
I see the point you are trying to make, but United States soldiers average joes . I think not. They are of the most highly trained military forces in the history of the world! However, I don't think your statement was meant as the insult that it sounded like.
Combat, and law enforcement are very different than civilian self defense. Most civilian confrontations occur within feet, not yards.
 
Cheapshooter...

... having been through the firearms training given at basic, plus a couple of other military training classes, I can assure you that "average joes" is not an unfair description.

Basic courses of fire entailed several hundred rounds each of 5.56mm and 9mm.

In comparison to what other armies get, that's not bad.

OTOH, in comparison to what I would have shot on my own time, over that same calendar period, it was only about equal - as far as the handgun went, and not too far ahead of what I might have done with the rifle. And that sort of course may only be a one-time thing for some troops. Others may have to qualify annually. I shoot a few hundred pistol rounds every other week, when I'm home, but that's on my time and at my expense. I shoot a few hundred rifle rounds per year, again on my time and at my expense.

I strongly suspect a fair number of TFL members shoot a lot more than the average military guy.

Now, I know some guys who are or who have been in specialty units. Some of them shoot hundreds to thousands of rounds per week. But they are part of a very, very small percentage.

But even with those guys, many seem to seek outside training, and compete in outside events on a regular basis.

Military training at the Big Service level is done based on the assumptions of city kids, unfamiliar with firearms, being brought up to a minimum proficiency level in a fairly short period of time, and at the least cost.
 
I see the point you are trying to make, but United States soldiers average joes . I think not. They are of the most highly trained military forces in the history of the world! However, I don't think your statement was meant as the insult that it sounded like.
Combat, and law enforcement are very different than civilian self defense. Most civilian confrontations occur within feet, not yards.


Well, yes and no. Yes they are the most highly trained and effective military force the world has ever seen. But, they all start out as average Joe's. In fact, nowadays many have never even shot a gun prior to joining. It's the training they get that has allowed them to be so good. If you are an average Joe, you too can train to a higher level of proficiency.
 
I don't think it's as much about "training" as it is "expectation" and I wasn't really talking about trigger time. There is, in my opinion, a huge difference in expectation and readiness when comparing a trained military or law enforcement unit on duty and an armed home owner watching TV with his wife and kids.

In simpler terms, I believe an armed confrontation would surprise "me" a lot more than it would a unit clearing a room or investigating shady activity. As a result, I think "I" would have additional obstacles to navigate in surviving it and I question how much a laser or night sights would actually help in that situation.

As I said in my initial post, I definitely see the advantages of such devices in military and law enforcement.
 
In a near totally dark room if you turn on a laser it will light up that room and make you a sitting duck. Now for the facts.
I'm glad he clarified that the facts were coming after that statement.
 
I am not an expert either but.....

.... I have carried lasers mounted on my primary weapons in combat for about 18 months and counting and.....

......I use them for my primary HD weapons, that I practice with, with some regularity. So I can tell you what it means to me and you can take it for what it is worth.

There is a difference between rifles and pistols and green and red and IR lasers and Chinese Junk and CT well... let's see, how do we sort this out?

Let's begin at the top and work our way outward eh?

This is the PEQ-15 Advanced Target Pointer Illuminator Aiming Light.

atpial.png


It is bad ass. You can buy an airsoft copy for $39.95. But the airsoft copy is not adjustable to 1 MOA or have an IR capability nor the 500m range. Once you zero it and lock the real deal in it is dead on target. So at night if you are sitting there with your IR laser targeting a bad guy he won't know, unless he has NVGs too. It can also send out an IR flood light, which can be useful also.

If you take the cover off you can use the red light laser in the day time.

This is not very useful outdoors during the day time.

But indoors, or in twilight... especially if you put a signature lens cover on it and get it to display a unique signature you can tell where you are aiming as opposed to your buddy, and where he is aiming too, since he will have his unique signature. But you have to actually practice this to get good at this.

You can also use this to direct aircraft to drop explosives and that could prove helpful. You just have to be careful. The laser works both ways. But draw a big enough circle and the pilot gets the idea.

Most soldiers have one of these or a similar model.

Then there are green lasers for rifles. These are useful for other reasons. You see America when you point a rifle at someone you may be committing assault. In combat, you might just be giving a helpful warning, or directing someone (not with you) to do something important. You could also be scanning your perimeter from a covered position at night. The green light serves as a warning and illuminates a much larger area than expected. If something moves it is much easier to pick up. IME Green laser are not really very accurate past 30-50 feet. Not that someone could not make an accurate one, I just don't know of any. This is also useful for flagging cars that are approaching too close, too fast or otherwise in a threatening manner. People stop very fast with a laser on their hood if their intentions are otherwise peaceable.

On shotguns the military does not normally issue lasers. I use a green light laser on mine however for HD. It is accurate at 50 feet within 3". This is plenty accurate for HD uses with 12 GA slugs. When the green light hits one of my white walls inside my house the whole room turns a pale green color. I know at room and hallway distances that if the laser is on a target it will hit the target where the laser is. This makes weapon handling much easier for me. There is no "looking" for the laser. You would have to be blind to miss it. This means I can keep my head off the stock and searching and scanning for threats and worry a lot less about aiming. Still I mount a light too. Outdoors, in bright light I can see the laser about 100' away. It lines up perfectly with the scope on my HD shotgun.

There are lots of other laser you can mount as well. For shotguns I also like the three dot lasers, that put out three red laser beams. These are useful as they print a bigger target even though it is red. They are bit heavy though.

On to the pistol...

On my M9 I have been issued a forward grip activated CT pistol red laser. Out of the box it was zeroed to the weapon at 15' and is great out to about 25 meters, which is as far as I can reliably see it in the day time. I use it in the same way I use the green one on the rifle. I also use it in low light and indoors to help with aiming.

It is slower than aiming.

But guess what, it is more accurate too. All the time we hear about how you can't miss fast enough? Well, what if you didn't have to worry about missing anymore? Would it be worth an extra half/ quarter second? While the bad guy is shooting and missing? To me, while I am wearing level 5 body armor and helmet I feel I can afford the extra half/ quarter second.

CT has the current monopoly on lasers that are grip activated. This is OK. Every CT laser I have ever used has been 100% reliable and accurate right out of the box.

On my SD hand guns (mine and the wife's) we also have CT lasers. They do help with training. But they are also accurate as hell. You train with them, you train without them. If it is important enough that you have to shoot something, than you want to hit it and not miss. Train enough and speed won't be a problem.

The rest:

The Chinese junk is junk. There are a few items out there that are interesting but most won't stand up to the recoil of real weapons and are designed for airsoft. They don't hold zero and rattle apart, even on .22 semis. It is like anything else, you pay for quality or you get left in a lurch.
 
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Do I think Laser sights are a bad thing? no

Do they add more mass to some CC guns? yes

Will some guns take a grip replacement or guide rod replacement that prevents much (if any) mass from being added? yes

Is it a good idea to train and trust in your laser sights only without being proficient shooting other ways? no way.

Seems like many ppl (at least those I see) who have laser sights rarely, if ever train with the sights. Long as you're good with both I see no issues.
 
I see the point you are trying to make, but United States soldiers average joes . I think not. They are of the most highly trained military forces in the history of the world! However, I don't think your statement was meant as the insult that it sounded like.

Certainly no insult intended. I can absolutely guarantee that I'd be the last person on this board to slight US Army Joes (or any of my brothers and sisters from the other services).

Especially since I happen to be one of those Joes. ;)

The military gives us a sizeable population to sample from when evaluating the usefulness of new widgets. We routinely train non-gunnies (the majority of initial entry troops) to effectively employ lasers in combat. The overwhelmingly positive results would tend to recommend their use by civilians as well. YMMV.
 
Questions directed at the naysayers...

I keep reading posts from those who think lasers are a crutch, weakens shooting expertise, are a liability, can be traced back to your position...etc...etc.

So, just out of curiosity, has anyone been on the receiving end of a laser dot on the chest? What went through your mind? What would go through your mind if you were in a gun fight and your enemy flashed your face and then dotted your chest with the laser and yelled for you to drop your weapon and surrender?

I guess some of it would depend on whether you'd think you would be shot if you gave up, but would you take a chance and continue or try to roll out of the line of fire? Now imagine you're the BG. Would you run, fight, or give-up?
 
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