An Expert Says No to Laser Sights
- Thread starter KMO
- Start date
I guess what us folks who are skeptical about lasers really want to know is this: How many real-life scenarios are there where a person is concealed carrying with a laser on his gun, has that person actually used the laser as an aiming device to successfuly land a shot on a bad-guy attacker? Same question, but instead of CC in public, inside of the victim's own home?
I have yet to hear even one account of where a laser has, in real life, helped somoene land shots on a bad guy.
I have yet to hear even one account of where a laser has, in real life, helped somoene land shots on a bad guy.
Cheapshooter
New member
By practicing with, and relying on the laser! Not learning to rely on the sights.
Just a couple of things to ponder here:
1. The person bashing lasers is selling a product for which lasers are not compatible. If you don't think that might have just a smidgen to do with his opinion, then I've got a very nice bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you.
2. We have yet to be given any credentials on this so-called "expert".
1. The person bashing lasers is selling a product for which lasers are not compatible. If you don't think that might have just a smidgen to do with his opinion, then I've got a very nice bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you.
2. We have yet to be given any credentials on this so-called "expert".
Again, lasers don't replace the sights, they supplement them.
That's like saying "relying on the sights" means you don't practice point shooting.
Sights have their place, as does point shooting, AND SO DOES LASERS.
Using one does not exclude the others.
I highly recommend people watch this video and determine if the laser sight may be a benifit to you, in SD situation. Also pay attention to the first part where the laser is used in training via dry firing.
http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Videos/TheArtOfSurvivalChapter1/tabid/399/Default.aspx
jglsprings
New member
The word "expert" has lost most of its meaning.
I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet...
I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet...
thebodhitree
New member
I don't use lasers, simply because I feel that thats another link in the chain. a chain is only as strong as its weakest link...
For me the chain is mind-spirit-body-gun-ammo.
You can only do what you've trained to do, if you train with a laser in the chain, you'll fall back on the laser. If the laser is not functioning, you're having to work with an unfamiliar chain.
ymmv
For me the chain is mind-spirit-body-gun-ammo.
You can only do what you've trained to do, if you train with a laser in the chain, you'll fall back on the laser. If the laser is not functioning, you're having to work with an unfamiliar chain.
ymmv
Onward Allusion
New member
Heh, another expert. There's a lot more to a laser than just target acquisition. To me it's just one more tool, like an attached light combo or night sights. Like #2 said - There is no magic bullet.
Actually, he is.
Rusty Ramirez
Police Officer, Los Angeles Police Department
Correctional Officer-Lieutenant, AZ Dept. of Corrections - Retired
Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor - State of Minnesota
Utah Permit to Carry Instructor - State of Utah
Certified North Dakota Permit to Carry (Class I & II) Instructor/Test Administrator
Refuse to be a Victim Instructor - Nationwide
Advanced Concealed Carry Instructor
Tactical Shotgun Instructor
Introduction to Tactical Carbines Instructor
NRA Instructor for Pistol and Personal Protection - Nationwide
NRA Instructor (Qualified for training/certification for the Florida Permit to Carry)
Concealed Weapon Permit Instructor - State of Arizona
NRA Weapons Instructor in Handgun - Nationwide
Correctional Training Officer Academy Instructor, AZ Dept. of Corrections
Community College Instructor, Northland Pioneer College, Winslow, AZ
Tactical Support Unit (Riot Team) Commander/Instructor
Discipline Coordinator and Chairperson, AZ Dept. of Corrections
First Aid Instructor
Crisis Intervention Instructor
Notary Public
Statewide Court Interpreter - Minnesota
..............
He aint perfect, but he isn't a chairborn ranger either.
orionengnr
New member
^^^
Wow, that is a long list of...what, exactly? Resume Filler?
Aside from the LAPD (which in and of itself is not a ringing endorsement of technique, tactics or marksmanship) the remainder of that (not so)impressive list indicates that the guy is probably qualified to teach safe firearms handling.
http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Videos/TheArtOfSurvivalChapter1/tabid/399/Default.aspx
Yes, I know it is an ad by the manufacturer of a laser product. But I put some stock in what these "experts" have to say. Their experience/credentials lend a bit of weight to their opinions.
Wow, that is a long list of...what, exactly? Resume Filler?
Aside from the LAPD (which in and of itself is not a ringing endorsement of technique, tactics or marksmanship) the remainder of that (not so)impressive list indicates that the guy is probably qualified to teach safe firearms handling.
http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Videos/TheArtOfSurvivalChapter1/tabid/399/Default.aspx
Yes, I know it is an ad by the manufacturer of a laser product. But I put some stock in what these "experts" have to say. Their experience/credentials lend a bit of weight to their opinions.
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I agree with him. And I will add that the only thing dumber than using a laser sight when you are in a dark area is to have a flashlight attached to the gun then hold the gun in front of your face and body. What a great target for the bad gun who just stays in the dark and fires at the light! You're dead.
Jim
Jim
I see his point, really. I hate to be one of the naysayers for lasers after reading some good arguments. However, lasers are one more electronic thing to go wrong in a defense situation. Lasers are an augmentation tool, as well, and DO NOT replace experience. His anecdotal experience is one thing however, and this is not a double-blind controlled study. A good point shooter will hit you with or without a laser at typical defensive distances. Learn to point-shoot and you won't have a problem with the decision for a laser. You'll be able to hit what you're looking at within reasonable range (5-7 yards or so) without a red dot.
Carguychris, in the first reply to OP, states
"Yes, the laser provides a way for the shooter's opponent to focus on the shooter, but OTOH it may cause the opponent to be dazzled and disoriented. The opponent is involved in a gunfight too and may presumably make many of the same perception-oriented mistakes as the other party.
A laser is a tool. It's not a magic bullet, but that doesn't make it useless either.
It sounds like this self-proclaimed "expert" has an axe to grind.
"
The original post said nothing of the kind, in fact, its sais:
"Attend a point shooting class and talk to an instructor. I have always said that if I ever have to use my hand gun I hope the other person is using a Laser. I am not saying there is not a place for the laser as there well may be but not in this case. Technology cannot substitute for expertise.
There is simply no point of convergence between "CarguyChris" remarks and those of the original poster, who says nothing of the kind that carguachris is objecting to. Makes me wonder if he A. read the post completely and correctly and, B. understand it. If the answers to either of those is "no", then I'd submit that the person with the axe to grind is himself.
"Yes, the laser provides a way for the shooter's opponent to focus on the shooter, but OTOH it may cause the opponent to be dazzled and disoriented. The opponent is involved in a gunfight too and may presumably make many of the same perception-oriented mistakes as the other party.
A laser is a tool. It's not a magic bullet, but that doesn't make it useless either.
It sounds like this self-proclaimed "expert" has an axe to grind.
"
The original post said nothing of the kind, in fact, its sais:
"Attend a point shooting class and talk to an instructor. I have always said that if I ever have to use my hand gun I hope the other person is using a Laser. I am not saying there is not a place for the laser as there well may be but not in this case. Technology cannot substitute for expertise.
There is simply no point of convergence between "CarguyChris" remarks and those of the original poster, who says nothing of the kind that carguachris is objecting to. Makes me wonder if he A. read the post completely and correctly and, B. understand it. If the answers to either of those is "no", then I'd submit that the person with the axe to grind is himself.
Onward Allusion
New member
That's a long list of qualifications but I don't believe in the word "expert" anymore. Maybe I'm jaded but everyone has good days, bad days and sometimes folks just get lucky. God, training, practice along with a roll of the dice is all there is. Opinions are just that. This is especially true in a statement of "fact" on something with so many shades of gray.
No, I'm not an expert - in anything for that matter. As they say, one day you're in and the next day you're out... Even if you're at the top of the game one day the rules are constantly changing. A person gets older and loses their edge to the next Young Turk. While technology can't substitute for expertise, it sure can supplement the training, skill set, and even age.
From Mr. Ramirez's resume excerpt, I would say he is definitely qualified to provide training in a couple of different areas, but is he an expert on lasers? No.
Crosshair
Police Officer, Los Angeles Police Department
Correctional Officer-Lieutenant, AZ Dept. of Corrections - Retired
Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor - State of Minnesota
Utah Permit to Carry Instructor - State of Utah
Certified North Dakota Permit to Carry (Class I & II) Instructor/Test Administrator
Refuse to be a Victim Instructor - Nationwide
Advanced Concealed Carry Instructor
Tactical Shotgun Instructor
Introduction to Tactical Carbines Instructor
NRA Instructor for Pistol and Personal Protection - Nationwide
NRA Instructor (Qualified for training/certification for the Florida Permit to Carry)
Concealed Weapon Permit Instructor - State of Arizona
NRA Weapons Instructor in Handgun - Nationwide
Correctional Training Officer Academy Instructor, AZ Dept. of Corrections
Community College Instructor, Northland Pioneer College, Winslow, AZ
Tactical Support Unit (Riot Team) Commander/Instructor
Discipline Coordinator and Chairperson, AZ Dept. of Corrections
First Aid Instructor
Crisis Intervention Instructor
Notary Public
Statewide Court Interpreter - Minnesota
..............
He aint perfect, but he isn't a chairborn ranger either.
No, I'm not an expert - in anything for that matter. As they say, one day you're in and the next day you're out... Even if you're at the top of the game one day the rules are constantly changing. A person gets older and loses their edge to the next Young Turk. While technology can't substitute for expertise, it sure can supplement the training, skill set, and even age.
From Mr. Ramirez's resume excerpt, I would say he is definitely qualified to provide training in a couple of different areas, but is he an expert on lasers? No.
Crosshair
Police Officer, Los Angeles Police Department
Correctional Officer-Lieutenant, AZ Dept. of Corrections - Retired
Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor - State of Minnesota
Utah Permit to Carry Instructor - State of Utah
Certified North Dakota Permit to Carry (Class I & II) Instructor/Test Administrator
Refuse to be a Victim Instructor - Nationwide
Advanced Concealed Carry Instructor
Tactical Shotgun Instructor
Introduction to Tactical Carbines Instructor
NRA Instructor for Pistol and Personal Protection - Nationwide
NRA Instructor (Qualified for training/certification for the Florida Permit to Carry)
Concealed Weapon Permit Instructor - State of Arizona
NRA Weapons Instructor in Handgun - Nationwide
Correctional Training Officer Academy Instructor, AZ Dept. of Corrections
Community College Instructor, Northland Pioneer College, Winslow, AZ
Tactical Support Unit (Riot Team) Commander/Instructor
Discipline Coordinator and Chairperson, AZ Dept. of Corrections
First Aid Instructor
Crisis Intervention Instructor
Notary Public
Statewide Court Interpreter - Minnesota
..............
He aint perfect, but he isn't a chairborn ranger either.
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Cheapshooter
New member
So being an NRA instructor is a joke, along with CCW instructor in several states and commander of a riot squad. Not to mention his other LE experience.
Let's be honest. The "professionals" or "experts" who hype the lasers are paid by the companies to advertise and sell them. Kind of like professional fishermen sell boats and lures.
If you think a laser is for you fine. It will give you confidence, and that could help. My personal preference is like many others. Keep It Simple Stupid. I also don't want a BG's bullet becoming a laser guided weapon following that tell tail red streak from my gun.
Gary L. Griffiths
New member
If it's a matter of credentials.....
...I'm an expert. I have more than 20 years of Federal law enforcement experience (Special Agent, US Army Criminal Investigation Command) and since 1994 have taught judgmental use of force and gunfighting tactics to law enforcement and armed private security agencies all over the US. I'm a court-qualified expert on firearms and the use of force. Oh, yeah, and I own my own company which specializes in training law enforcement agencies. I don't sell lasers or have any stock in any laser company.
Having said that, there are lasers on the two handguns I carry most often for defense, and I'm in the process of gunsmithing a mounting rail on the third so I can mount a laser on it. Other than some degree of difficulty in finding a holster to fit a laser-mounted weapon, there just is no downside to having one mounted, except that, as has been pointed out, you must not practice with it so much that you degrade your ability to use your iron sights and to point shoot. It is actually quite an aid in learning point shooting techniques.
Using a laser in a gunfight situation allows you to remain further behind cover, exposing less of your body to return fire. If the situation hasn't quite deteriorated into a gunfight yet, the little red dot appearing on a belligerent opponent's chest tends to have a very calming effect. Unless you're dealing with an atmosphere containing smoke or dust, most red lasers can't easily be traced back to their source (although the green ones can). Momentary "on" switches on most weapon lasers allow you to keep it invisible until just before you shoot -- or use it as a "last warning."
I won't file the sights off my handguns (even the really tiny ones on my LCP) nor will I quit practicing point shooting. How often are lasers used in actual defensive shootings? It will be impossible to tell, unless someone wants to conduct a survey of shootout survivors. But in training it's a useful tool and IMHO has the potential to also be useful in a defensive shootout.
As for me, I'll use any tool that has even the slightest possibility of giving me an edge in a gunfight. YMMV.
...I'm an expert. I have more than 20 years of Federal law enforcement experience (Special Agent, US Army Criminal Investigation Command) and since 1994 have taught judgmental use of force and gunfighting tactics to law enforcement and armed private security agencies all over the US. I'm a court-qualified expert on firearms and the use of force. Oh, yeah, and I own my own company which specializes in training law enforcement agencies. I don't sell lasers or have any stock in any laser company.
Having said that, there are lasers on the two handguns I carry most often for defense, and I'm in the process of gunsmithing a mounting rail on the third so I can mount a laser on it. Other than some degree of difficulty in finding a holster to fit a laser-mounted weapon, there just is no downside to having one mounted, except that, as has been pointed out, you must not practice with it so much that you degrade your ability to use your iron sights and to point shoot. It is actually quite an aid in learning point shooting techniques.
Using a laser in a gunfight situation allows you to remain further behind cover, exposing less of your body to return fire. If the situation hasn't quite deteriorated into a gunfight yet, the little red dot appearing on a belligerent opponent's chest tends to have a very calming effect. Unless you're dealing with an atmosphere containing smoke or dust, most red lasers can't easily be traced back to their source (although the green ones can). Momentary "on" switches on most weapon lasers allow you to keep it invisible until just before you shoot -- or use it as a "last warning."
I won't file the sights off my handguns (even the really tiny ones on my LCP) nor will I quit practicing point shooting. How often are lasers used in actual defensive shootings? It will be impossible to tell, unless someone wants to conduct a survey of shootout survivors. But in training it's a useful tool and IMHO has the potential to also be useful in a defensive shootout.
As for me, I'll use any tool that has even the slightest possibility of giving me an edge in a gunfight. YMMV.