A story all CPL holders should read & why you need plenty of ammo

[larryh1108]

Policemen carry sidearms for SD, same as anybody else.

Huh? Execution squads? Self defense for cops? I think you are either splitting hairs and just trying to be controversial.

I don't know many BGs who go out looking to shoot a cop (SD) but rather prey on helpless people. A cop may not be there to prevent a crime but he then goes out to hunt down the BG to bring him in "dead or alive" as the OLD saying goes. If you go into each day wishing you get to shoot someone then become a cop. The chances are a lot better you'll get your wish although there are probably 90%+ of the LEO population who never shot their gun in the line of duty. (guess on percentage). Another guess is that a LEO has a 1000x better chance of being in the position to use deadly force than the daily CPL. Wannabe cops still scare me.

 

[_Muad'dib_]

We are trying to decide if the LEO's actions were justified and it seems as if it's a big deal that he was off duty. If he had been in uniform would you condemn his actions? It seems that he tried his best to move people to safety and uphold the law. I'm just wondering if there would be a different response from himself and the forum if he was wearing different clothing?


I don't think I fault him for his actions. Why did the BG come back out to the front with his gun pulled? Didn't he already get the money from the back? What are his intentions now? Isn't he going to be slightly peeved when he notices that everyone leaves and can identify him? Too many questions to answer honestly. The main one that sticks out in my mind is that his gun is pulled, he's in public and he's already committed one crime at least. I guess the LEO could have waited to see what he was going to do. But tactically speaking I'm guessing the LEO had quite a bit bigger advantage from 15-20 yards using his shooting skills than from 5 yards where he's going to have a much higher chance of being randomly struck by a bullet.

And yes, if it had been my daughter, I would be very very upset and may view the whole thing differently.

And if I had been there I would have just exited with my family and called 911from safety. As all civilian should have done.

 

[thesheepdog]

My question:

Why did he shoot the BG 11 times? If it were me, I would double tap; one in the chest, one in the head; not spray 11 rounds all at once. Give me a break!

 

[CMichael]

You keep shooting until the threat is stopped.

 

[TailGator]

Quote:
It matters not that we do not condemn him - he has, in a manner of speaking, condemned himself.
And this brings the little girl back to life?

Of course it doesn't. But neither does sitting in a comfy chair 13 years later and condemning a man who devoted his working life to upholding the law, one who made the best decisions he could in the mere seconds he had to make them.

Do I think Krgwy handled it better? Yes, no doubt. But with a dynamic and dangerous situation, should we expect human beings, whether LEOs or ourselves as armed civilians, to make perfect decisions in every moment? I am willing to say that you are asking too much of me if that is your expectation.

 

[madmag]

If the officer in question, if this is true, had his stray round hit an innocent - do you think he should be prosecuted?

That's a hard call...at least for me. I think, given the information, I would not want to prosecute the LEO if his round had hit an innocent person. The LEO may not have used the best judgment, but he was not the one breaking the law. The BG's are the most at fault for even attempting the robbery.

Others may think different.

 

[old bear]

Letting the bad guy go because doing otherwise would place innocent people in grave danger needs to be more “socially acceptable” amongst our ranks. I think we're starting to see more of this in the pursuit policies of most agencies and I have tried to carry this message over into my training and teaching.

A.A. +1. Without sounding trite its’ better that 1,000 suspects get away NOW than to needlessly endanger the life of 1 citizen!

 

[Jim March]

We are trying to decide if the LEO's actions were justified and it seems as if it's a big deal that he was off duty. If he had been in uniform would you condemn his actions?

The core issue is "don't conduct a gunfight in a bystander-dense environment if you can help it". That rule should apply the same regardless for CCW holders, off-duty cops, plainclothes cops, uniformed cops.

The sole difference with the uniformed cop is that the uniform itself can trigger a gunfight. Better to get that uniform completely out of sight, if this is a place where you don't want a gunfight to happen.

As a CCW holder, my first plan would be to fade back, hide, watch, look like any other type of civilian, and start a gunfight ONLY! if the alternatives are worse, like if the goblin turned full-on murderer, rapist, etc. Then he's going to get a Gold Dot surprise.

 

[overkill0084]

I have no LEO experience & i have never needed to use a firearm in a life or death situation. I feel bad for the guy, it's really one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. You make decisions based on what you know and what you think you know at the time.

Why was the fire exit door locked?
I thought the whole point of them was to allow customers easy egress in the event of an emergency. Perhaps an emergency such as a fire, robbery, earthquake, gas leak...

 

[markj]

I truly belive this story cements my position on staying the heck out of McDonalds. Been beat up in one myself.

Everyone makes dicesions, he made one that turned bad for the little girl. I fault the BG 100%. Myself? I owuld have gotten my family out, then get as much info as possible IE license plate maybe a pic with the cell phone etc.

 

[Xyas]

I thought the whole point of them was to allow customers easy egress in the event of an emergency. Perhaps an emergency such as a fire, robbery, earthquake, gas leak...

Most of the fire doors I've seen have that special bar across it where you have to push on it for 15 seconds while the alarm sounds, then it unlocks.

 

[thesheepdog]

Everyone makes dicesions, he made one that turned bad for the little girl. I fault the BG 100%.

Yes, truly, the BG is 100% responsible. The LEO was just trying to do his job. Could it have been done better, well, it's for the eye of the beholder to decide that. I think if he was smarter, the little girl wouldn't have been shot.
Time is always an advantage and a disadvantage, but if you're smart enough, you can harness it into a very effective weapon.

But firstly, get everyone to safety, before you start shooting.

You're an idiot if you make yourself a target-with other innocents near you-by addressing yourself as a LEO. What's going to happen is what happened in this case, innocent bystanders were killed/injured because you decided to make yourself a hero.

 

[larryh1108]

Letting the bad guy go because doing otherwise would place innocent people in grave danger needs to be more “socially acceptable” amongst our ranks. I think we're starting to see more of this in the pursuit policies of most agencies and I have tried to carry this message over into my training and teaching.

A.A. +1. Without sounding trite its’ better that 1,000 suspects get away NOW than to needlessly endanger the life of 1 citizen!

I'm asking because I don't know how I feel yet. I agree that you let the car thief, pimp, purse snatcher get away if chasing him endangers lives of innocent people. A high speed chase on the LA Freeway to catch a car thief is ridiculous. However, do we let them get away without resistance if they are proven to have reckless regard for life, have a gun and have proven they aren't afraid to use it at any time?

The guy in that McDonalds committed an armed robbery in broad daylight with tens of people around. We do not know if he would have just left without hurting anybody. He could have left the back office, rounded up the people and made them hand over their valuables because the back safe wasn't full enough. He could have spotted someone who recognized him and decided to go down in a shootout. He could be an escaped prisoner who needed fast cash and a way out of town. Desperate people who are armed can't be predictable. If you're gonna hold up a busy McDonalds in the middle of the day they your thinking cap isn't on straight to begin with.

If we allow guys who are violent to walk away now, they could and probably will leave a string of dead people along the way. The little girl who died was in the wrong place at the wrong time and I feel sorry for her friends and family. It was not the cop's fault she died and armchair quarterbacking can pin the blame on him 3 out of 4 times but he did what he was trained to do at that moment. When idiots decide to break the law with violence it usually has a tragic ending. Allowing this guy to walk out would not guarantee this little girl would be alive today and if he left without any violence the next robbery could have ended up with 5 or 6 dead. Wait, maybe he would have retired from his score? Yeah, right.

 

[Tom Servo]

Then he's going to get a Gold Dot surprise.

I get the feeling "Gold Dot surprise" isn't a fancy kind of iced-cream sundae...

Of course it doesn't. But neither does sitting in a comfy chair 13 years later and condemning a man who devoted his working life to upholding the law

You've got a point. The officer realized that his actions, even if only in part, led to the death of that little girl. He's been living with it. I'm not going to pour scorn on him as a human being, nor should any of us.

However, there's a lesson to be learned--it's just not about ammunition capacity.

 

[FireForged]

As a joe citizen, I operate in a different manner than any LEO. I will remove myself from danger if possible and stay the heck away from anything that looks like a problem. If I must defend myself with a firearm, 5 shots will have to be enough. I could carry something different and certainly pile a bunch of speed loaders in my pocket but thats just not my style.

 

[BillCA]

Obervations and comments:

• I'm going to have to stop at McD's in Barstow on the way home from the SHOT show to check out this huge restaurant. I too thought he might have written "yards" instead of feet.
• Locked fire door. A serious no-no in California. Delay-locks are not permitted IIRC except in "security" environments (i.e. computer rooms, payroll areas, etc.). But he makes no mention any follow-up on that. After all, it seriously endangered his family.
• 11 rounds in 4-5 seconds I find more believeable. As others have said, however, time gets distorted during a high stress event.
• He did what many people might try to do. Get his family to safety, then usher others to safety whilst "watching their backs".
• IF a CCW permit holder had been in his shoes, it's likely he would have been detained, arrested and charged with manslaughter at the least.

A CCW holder who engages in a gunfight inside a "bystander rich" environment in which some innocent gets hit or killed stands a very good chance of facing a grand jury and/or prosecution. The .GOV will argue that any intervention, confrontation or display of a firearm against the bad guy escalated the situation into a shooting. They'll probably have the statistics to show there was over a 95% chance that the thug would simply leave with the cash.

Addressing comments:

If you want to shoot the BGs then become a cop.

Police have only a little more leeway when shooting than do civilians. Unlike Civilians, police may be obligated to remain in contact with the subject and/or continue engaging to protect the public.

Isn't he going to be slightly peeved when he notices that everyone leaves and can identify him?

Not particularly. With the prevalance of video cameras today, it seems as if most crooks don't care, are in too much of a hurry or are too stupid to think that far ahead. Some are none too bright - like the ex-employee of a liquor store that returned to hold up the 7-11 next door and even greeted the clerk by name. One nimrod robbed the liquor store and the next day returned to the 7-11 to buy lottery tickets. It seems more important to them to obtain the cash than delay in the area trying to silence witnesses.

As a CCW holder, my first plan would be to fade back, hide, watch, look like any other type of civilian, and start a gunfight ONLY! if the alternatives are worse, like if the goblin turned full-on murderer, rapist, etc. Then he's going to get a Gold Dot surprise.

Amigo, we are in violent agreement on tactics here.
Don't let your gonads write checks your body can't cash.

Had I been in the officer's shoes, the driving force would be getting my family out to safety, which is beyond the parking lot. If I could convince others to go too, great. If the thug comes out from the back and heads for a door, I'm not doing anything to keep him inside with access to hostages.

Like Jim says, if he goes full-goose bonzo and starts shooting people, he'll become a test target for the JHP's in my sidearm. In such a case, statistically anyone inside is potentially a fatal statistic, so you have little to lose by shooting.

Lastly, contrary to the OP's implication that a semi-automatic pistol is necessary for this kind of situation, it is not. Notice that regardless of whether he fired 6 times or 11 times, he had no time to determine if his hits had stopped the robber or not. Not until he stopped shooting. If his hit rate was in the 90% range as indicated, a wheelgun might have been just as effective.

In 1976, IIRC, a Washington State trooper faced 3 armed felons on a remote car stop, alone. The driver fired on him with a 1911, the forward passenger used an M1 Carbine and the 3rd used a Ruger Single Six. Three .45 rounds were fired, 7 .30 M1 rounds and 3 .22 LR rounds by all three suspects. The trooper fired just 3 rounds of W-W Super-X .357 from his 6" S&W M28. The driver died with his aortic arch shredded. The Carbine shooter was hit in the 3rd shirt button (it was found inside his chest) and the .22 shooter was hit almost at the end of his nose. It's not how many rounds you have, it is your ability to focus and make good accurate hits that counts.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I notice several people have brought up how stress can distort your sense of time in arguing whether 11 rounds could be fired in 2 seconds; but the original post said "Security camera video of this incident revealed that I fired all 11 rounds from my Glock 26 in about 2 seconds."

So this isn't a case of the shooter simply getting confused as to how much time had passed. Again, I think it highlights that a trained shooter can expend a lot of ammo before he even realizes that his shots have been effective.

If we are going to train to shoot until the threat is stopped, then that is something we need to consider in our planning and onboard ammo. 5 rounds sounds like plenty for a shooter; but if you expend all 5 on the first target in under a second, Jerry-Miculek like, then 5 may not get it done, even though any one of the 5 may have been effective on its own.

 

[madmag]

As a joe citizen, I operate in a different manner than any LEO. I will remove myself from danger if possible and stay the heck away from anything that looks like a problem.

For me, I that's the learning point of this inicident. Now if I am in a store and the BG's want me or my wife to lie down on the floor, or go to a back room, then that's when I will defend myself.

 

[Powderman]

Wow. All the comments about "the cop caused that little girl's death".

No, folks.

It was the guy who made the choice to do an armed robbery of a McDonalds that caused the little girl's death.

So, a lot of you are jumping on the cop's actions. What exactly did he do?

He told his family to get the heck out of there. They tried, but were prevented from doing so by a LOCKED FIRE DOOR. (Isn't that against the fire code?)

Did anyone miss this next part:

I began quietly telling employees and patrons to leave. My thinking was to remove as many innocent bystanders as possible and then leave myself.

Probably not. Most of you are so busy going into the armchair quarterback mode that you didn't see this part.

So, now comes the bad guy. Here's the equation---Armed violent criminal, in the process of committing a felony, with lethal weapon visible, running toward people.

Here stands a sworn officer, also armed. He does not have time to think about it. He reacts in accordance to his training.

He draws his weapon and challenges the felon. THE FELON CHOSE AT THAT POINT TO OPEN FIRE IN A CROWDED ENVIRONMENT.

The officer responded, and he shot to stop. It took 11 rounds, yes--caliber doesn't count. He fired 11 rounds, hit the perp 10 times, UNDER FIRE.

Now, the big one...the little girl.

Everyone is mentioning how the little girl should not have died. I agree 100%. She should not have died.

Now here is the question. I think you all MISSED this part...

I immediately noticed a small child lying behind me.

Here's the important phrase..lying BEHIND him.

The child was BEHIND the officer.

Consider how close that bullet had to pass the officer to hit the child.

Also, it is a conditioned reflex for most cops to put themselves between the people they are trying to protect and the danger that threatens them. I believe that there is a possibility that the officer did EXACTLY that.

So, here is the officer who walks into an armed robbery; who initially tells his family to leave and has a stated intention to get others to safety; who finds himself in mortal danger, from a armed felon with a gun.

Who tries to resolve the situation by ID'ing himself as an officer, in the hope that the BG will surrender peacefully.

Instead, the officer finds himself under fire at close range. His life can now be measured in microseconds--he's on borrowed time for every breath he draws.

He responds to the immediate and lethal threat by shooting with remarkable accuracy under heavy stress--10 hits from 11 shots.

It is not his fault that the little girl was killed by the bullet of an armed felon.

He did his job. He stopped a lethal threat.

And some of you armchair quarterbacks are condeming this man? Trying to second guess his actions, even though by some of your own admissions YOU HAVE NEVER HAD TO DRAW YOUR WEAPONS TO DEFEND YOUR LIFE?

Some of you are saying that if confronted by the same situation that you would run. If you're not a cop, I guess that's OK.

But DON'T condemn this man who stood in the face of violent death and roared back. You don't have the right to do it. NONE of us do.

 

[pacerdude]

I really feel for the officer in this situation. He was in the heat of the moment trying to get his family, and as many of the other people in the McDonald's to safety, doing what he felt was right, when the bad guy comes along and interrupts his plan. He then identified himself as a police officer, and the bad guy still chose to draw his weapon and fire.

The little girl's blood rests solely on the hands of the bad guy, though I am sure the officer feels that he is responsible. If the bad guy had not chose to fire his weapon, the little girl would still be alive.