A story all CPL holders should read & why you need plenty of ammo

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So, I'm missing something. Is the assertion that more ammunition would have saved that little girl's life?

I'm sorry, but he had a chance to leave, but he did not. Furthermore, he chose to escalate the situation. Those are two decisions I would have made much differently.

It would be one thing if the perpetrator had already shot someone, or if he showed that he was intent on doing so. I don't see anything like that in the account.

What I do see is someone getting in over his head and placing others in danger. 11 shots in 2 seconds, from someone who admits he wasn't fully aware of the situation, is uncontrolled. What if the manager had been exiting behind the perpetrator?
 
What some people don't seem to get is that stories like that don't reflect a self-defense situation. That was an off-duty LEO who (may have) had a duty to stand and protect. I'm not saying whether or not he reacted correctly or if I'd have done any different.

As a concealed handgun license holder I have the right to retreat. I could have scooted my family, myself, and anybody else that wanted to go right out the door. I have no responsibility to protect McDonald's money.

It also makes clear why you need plenty of ammo. You listening revolver people?
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So what, exactly, does this story have to do with the amount of ammo a ccl holder needs to carry?
 
Bingo, Sport45 is right on.

A ccw is a last measure to get you out of a dangerous situation. I's not a license to get into an extended shootout. But hey, this is America. Everyone should protect themselves as they feel they need to.

This story isn't proof of anything for the civilian in the normal course of life imo.
 
I fully agree that this story has nothing to do with caliber or capacity.

The thing that struck me is that the author is grieving for the little girl who was killed. Legally and ethically he was in the right, but he has reflected on his actions and he wishes he had done some things differently - things that may have avoided the death of a nine year old child.

It matters not that we do not condemn him - he has, in a manner of speaking, condemned himself. He knows, without us telling him, that he was not the bad guy, and that he did not initiate the situation that led to the little girl's death. His rational mind can tell him that he was in the right, but his soul is crying out at the knowledge that he had a role, albeit a role that was not entirely within his control, in the death of a precious, innocent child.

This is an aspect of concealed carry that is ignored by some. This incident had an irreversible impact on the man and, apparently, on his family, even though he was legally justified. I wonder if those who profess to be looking for an excuse to deploy and fire their carried firearm would feel differently were they in the shoes of the author.

This story, rather than arguing about caliber and capacity, reinforces the message that we need to resort to gunfire only as a last option. That which is legal, and that which is our right, is not always the wisest course of action. Exercising our rights may well leave us and our loved ones with some haunting memories.
 
I agree.

I see a trend on most boards where the majority of CCW holders have this "Rambo" type mentality. They are gonna take on any bad guy come hell or high water, walk around with 1000 rounds of extra rounds, 3 hi cap pistols, yeah, hell yeah!!! :rolleyes:

In my opinion, I view a CCW permit as an opportunity to carry a firearm as a LAST DITCH OPTION. Its a DEFENSIVE weapon, not an offensive IMHO.

I carry Glocks and/or snub 38/357's depending on a variety of variables.

People need to get it in their heads that thier carry permit, does not permit them to act like a 1 man SWAT team.

The above example is not a SD situation. Had the guy been walking to the crapper, turned a corner, and had this BG in his face in an instant with a gun drawn on him, perhaps a different story, who knows.

Your role as a civilian is to keep you and your loved ones safe, i.e. get OUT of the building, and be a good witness and call it in and relay real time info to dispatch.

Of course, I could be wrong... ;)

-Drew

Edit: The off duty LEO is not in the wrong, his profession as an officer of the Law, and sworn to serve and protect obviously took over. Thats great, no one can second guess his tactics as we werent there. Sounds like he was trying to evac, when all of a sudden he was "ambushed". NOW, he was in a SD situation as he took fire first.
Regading the comments about caliber, lets get real here. We will never know that just becuase the BG soaked up 10 rounds of 9mm that the first 1-2 didnt shut him down. The object is to STOP and attack, not kill in a shooting, althouht this is often the outcome. So be it as long as it was justified.
 
Letting the bad guy go because doing otherwise would place innocent people in grave danger needs to be more “socially acceptable” amongst our ranks.
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This seems to be the the main thrust of the quoted article. And yet, we are talking about capacity and caliber...

:barf:
 
The wording of the story begs the question, where was the girl when the shooting started? He didn't see her until he approached the BG and then scanned around behind him. If the BG was 20-25 yards away to start, it sounds as if she may have been somewhere between them to start. Not a good time to announce yourself and draw fire...

The locked fire door also sounds like a big red flag.
 
I think it does illustrate that if you are well trained with a firearm and trained to shoot until the threat goes away, you can put out a lot of ammunition in a very short time.

Let's say we have a scenario like this where your first round is effective; but it takes about two seconds for you to notice that threat has stopped. Using a single sight picture, my splits are about 0.2 seconds. Reacquiring the sights after every shot slows me down to about 0.5 seconds. That would mean anywhere from 4-10 shots fired in that scenario, even though only one is necessary. If I am carrying a J-frame, I am either dry or have one round left. If I am carrying a G26, I am either dry or halfway through my magazine. Either way, if another threat shows up, I am in a bad place.

I think this phenomenon is something to keep in mind because the people it effects the worst are going to be the people who train the most. I also think that is something that all of us need to consider in our training. The human body can take a lot of abuse. People have remained functional for as long as 13 seconds with their heart destroyed. If you are going to train to keep shooting until you hit slidelock or until the threat goes away, then you need to adjust your ammo load accordingly.
 
One thing that I have considered is the difference in reaction time between a trained LEO, a criminal or a law abiding citizen with a ccw. Of course there will be individual differences but the LEO or the criminal is less likely to hesitate. I was in a SD situation many years ago and the ramifications of what I was doing were running through my mind while the scenario was unfolding. I don't think the average perpetrator agonizes over the possible consequences of his actions. As far as the LEO in this situation, I guess he was trained to protect and defend rather than retreat. The Monday morning quarterbacking with it's would'a, shoud'a, could'a is inevitable but he did what he thought was right at the time.
 
I think the real problem, which has been mentioned by others is, somebody turned a robbery into a firefight, without making sure the customers were safe. The result is a dead little girl.

I spent 20 years in LE, and like most, I carried off duty, I had a similar situation at a KFC. Just after lunch, but still many customers in the store.

I had a gun, I was off duty. I eyeballed the situation, getting every detail I could mentally list of the bandit. Then let him escape. I followed him at a distance until I could get a description of the car. Then called it in.

Yeah I could have tried to stop him in the store, I could have confronted him outside, but there were customers in the store, there were customers fleeing the store. I kept my gun and ID hidden.

No one was hurt, no shots fired. They bandit was caught less then 15 min. later.

Its not about how many rounds you carry, its about knowing when not to shoot as well as when to shoot. Unless I'm missing something from the original story, the bandit was fleeing, no indication that he was going to hurt anyone.

As far as 10 rounds in 2 seconds, I don't know if its possible or not, I don't know the individual nor the gun he was shooting. I do know in a stressful situation its difficult to tell 2 seconds from 5 or 10. I find it hard to believe anyone would consider timing themselves after the pucker factor kicks in.
 
Just for info - I've seen six shots in 3.5 to 3.9 for lots of IDPA shooters with Glocks and other semis.

The estimate of time is meaningless as such judgments go out the window.

The real point is made by several a few times. He started a gun fight (if the story is accurate) is an environment with significant risk of innocent lives as compared to the risk of the robber starting shooting if the crime just proceeded without interruption.
 
I don't consider the described incident as a SD situation. Not saying an off duty LEO should not try to stop a robbery, just saying I would have not engaged the BG unless I felt a direct threat. Even after reading said incident, I still fell comfortable carrying my 7 rds. (.45ACP) in my G36.

kraigwy said:
I had a gun, I was off duty. I eyeballed the situation, getting every detail I could mentally list of the bandit. Then let him escape. I followed him at a distance until I could get a description of the car. Then called it in.
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Sounds like for an LEO that would have been a better way for this guy to have handled the situation.
 
If the officer in question, if this is true, had his stray round hit an innocent - do you think he should be prosecuted?

Killed an innocent or injured one in a manner that might be seen as negligent.

Or if it was your family member, would you sue?

Just curious.
 
I should have highlighted the part of ammo.


I immediately noted the large semi-automatic pistol in his hand. The distance was about 15 to 20 yards. I drew my weapon, announced myself and took a kneeling position behind the counter. Unfortunately, the suspect raised his weapon at me and the gunfight erupted. The suspect fired a total of 2 rounds in my direction. I fired 11, striking him 10 times.

My weapon was now empty and I ran from the line of fire to reload my spare magazine. I then approached the downed suspect and could tell that he was seriously wounded. It was right then that I considered that there might be more than one "bad guy" (the thought had not crossed my mind before this) and I began to scan the 360 to check.

I immediately noticed a small child lying behind me. I saw blood pooling under her head and knew at a glance she was dead. One of the bullets fired at me had struck this child. Unbeknownst to me, my family had tried to exit out the fire door, which was locked. My wife was still trying to get out when the shooting started and she pushed my kids under a table where they all witnessed the gunfight.

The end result was that the suspect died, I survived, but a 9-year-old girl did not.

I tell you this story because I think that this topic is of utmost importance. It is largely ignored in mainstream police training. I want to tell you some of the lessons I learned from this incident:

If you are going to carry a firearm off-duty, you should carry extra ammo. Security camera video of this incident revealed that I fired all 11 rounds from my Glock 26 in about 2 seconds. My extra mag held 17 rounds. Words cannot describe the emotion I felt when I slammed that mag into my weapon and was able to still be in the fight.

Mostly because of circumstances (distance) and my training, my rounds were on target. It could have happened differently and the reality is that most of us miss more than we hit when involved in a gun battle.
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I will build this post with quotes by others.

Whether real or not, I think the guy did pretty well. It is in no way, shape, or form his fault the girl was shot.
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I'm sorry, but am I missing something? Didn't the crook shoot first?
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Quote:
I drew my weapon, announced myself
This was his elevation, the BG then aimed and fired.
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It matters not that we do not condemn him - he has, in a manner of speaking, condemned himself.
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And this brings the little girl back to life?

kraigwy
I had a gun, I was off duty. I eyeballed the situation, getting every detail I could mentally list of the bandit. Then let him escape. I followed him at a distance until I could get a description of the car. Then called it in.
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Regardless of what might be said the Rambo cop caused the little girl’s death.

kraigwy did it the way it should be done.
 
This does show the difference between a trained LEO and a CPL carrier. As a CPL your obligation ends at getting you and your family to safety. It is not to engage the criminal because you are armed. I read these boards a lot and am amazed at how many guys actually look to be involved in a situation. They seem to be saying "today might be the day" when they holster up for the day instead of saying "I hope this stays put all day".

The LEO went into cop mode after he thought his family was safe. A CPL would go out with his family to insure they were safe and motion to anyone else to follow quietly. He would then call 911 from a safe distance.

I thought the story said they BG had a hostage. There is no guarantee that he would have left there peacefully if he already had a hostage and he saw people fleeing, screaming or whatever. There was no guarantee the BG would have left peacefully if the off duty LEO hadn't acted as he did. Someone could have dropped something when he saw the robbery and a loud noise could have set off shots that could have left many dead and wounded.

What if this LEO had left with his family and called it in and it turned into a massacre because something set off the BG and 5 or 6 were killed. His consciance would eat at him the rest of his life as well. It's a lose/lose situation when things like this happen. The LEO did what his training taught him and he has to live with that. We aren't off duty LEOs, we are private citizens. If you want to shoot the BGs then become a cop. Wannabe cops scare the daylights out of me.
 
If you want to shoot the BGs then become a cop.
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:confused:

And here I thought policemen were there for law enforecement, not execution squads...... I don't want any LEOs hitting the street looking for somebody to shoot.

Policemen carry sidearms for SD, same as anybody else.
 
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