A "Helping the Cops" Scenario ...

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have been there when a partner was shot and killed......
I have heard the distinctive sound of bullets whizzing by me.......
I have put pressure on the trigger waiting for pin to strike primer-only to have the deserving action stop before death was delt
I have been trained-extensively- in comparison to most-
I can shoot, better than most, but not as good as some......
I'm not trying to sound cocky, arrogant or pompus, I chose this life on my own based on my core values and morals and I will SURVIVE, and if two LEO's are gunned down in front of me, their adversary has just entered into a no holds barred gunfight that I will enter into, with all my training and experience-
I am also a realist and understand that Lady Luck is sure to show her head during this ordeal, I just pray that she is on my side....

There is no right or wrong answer- you do what you can do, do it well, and live with the decisions you make

May all LEO's who lost their lives rest in peace, may their families eventually find some level of comfort, and may all their brothers end their tour of duty safetly......
NEVER FORGET
 
Last edited:
I have to agree with Theothertexasrich here. Markj, that security guard remark was uncalled for. I come from an extensive military background and currently work security for a city school district. Saying "not security guard stuff" sounds kind of like you're calling me a joke. Also, if it was 2 of my buddies, it was certainly be a different story. I'd likely have some idea of what was going on.
 
Belated comment...

Tyler Courthouse and Tacom Mall incidents should be required reading for those who postulate they will immediately hit the target and win the fight.
Click to expand...

The CC licensed civilian in my hometown of Tyler did hit the target - at least twice. Unfortunately, the MAK-90-wielding BG (who had just shot his ex-wife and son on the courthouse steps) was also sporting kevlar, and the civilian's shots were ineffective. Very sad case, very brave civilian (who snuck up to shoot the BG in the courthouse square while the BG was engaged in a shooting match with local police). The civilian was killed by the BG, and the BG was taken out by police after a car chase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting
(wiki, but reads accurately, based on my memory of hearing about the event)

Can't speak for Tacom Mall - hopefully at close range it would be more apparent whether someone is wearing bulletproof gear. In any event, I suspect the most effective strategy in a life-or-death situation is to go for a headshot - and shoot to win. The consequences of a miss are deadly.
 
Last edited:
similar thing happened to me in 1990

I was working at department store and a guy used a stolen credit card to try and make a purchase. I started to ring the sale and the card came up stolen. I had our undercover cop in our area at the time. He identified himself to the guy and he took off running...only thing was he ran back into an area with no outlet to escape, cop corners him and I'm following the action. The cop is in the process of cuffing him and the guy gets hold of the cops gun. The cop tells me to help get the gun, I beat the tar out of him but he wouldn't stop.I put my fingers in his eye and then the cop bit his ear off (actually bit the top of the ear off).....That was the end of it and soon the dude gave up.The cop thanked me to no end and I felt glad to have helped.
 
that security guard remark was uncalled for. I come from an extensive military background and currently work security for a city school district.
Click to expand...

Military training isnt what most security guards get. Sorry if it offended you, most of these folks havent ever had a gun shot at them or have training for this. I have relatives here in the police force one of them also does security guard stuff. I do not question his ability, he has training. I also have relatives in the Corp, I do not question them either, they have training, one is in Iraq right now.

I have seen a guy shoot at a guy less than 10 feet away and miss every shot. OK it was me getting shot at. In my previous line of work I was shot at, was shot once, was stabbed once. I am not talking out of my rear end.

Folks never really know how they will react till it happens unless they have extensive training in simulated circumstances like in say boot camp.
 
The Tyler gentleman did hit the target but from many accounts did not properly deal with action after the hits.

Note, I clearly said - make the hits and win the fight. That's the point - he didn't win the fight because from some accounts he did not follow through appropriately.
 
The officers were doing their job and there was nothing wrong with contacting the suspect in the parking lot of a gun range. The suspect had no guns in his hand, having concealed a handgun on his person. A man can be armed anywhere you contact him. In fact, I argue that the most dangerous place to contact a domestic violence suspect is at his home where if he has weapons, they are sure to be loaded and ready. In the LE world, we call this a "stronghold". This is the most likely place of contact regarding domestic violence suspects and unfortunately, alot of officers have been killed when they were shot on approach to a house. The Deputies had a duty to contact him and immediately take him under arrest. He had committed an assault on his spouse and needed to be arrested. Whose to say, he would not have returned to his wife, if left alone, and killed her. Now after the contact, there are a lot of things that could have been done different and other officers will learn from their mistakes but I won't go into those. Here is a good read of the event and you can draw your own conclusions: http://odmp.org/officer/19925-deputy-sheriff-warren-(skip)-york

As far as a citizen joining the affray as it is going down, some will, some won't. You have to know yourself, your abilities, your willingness. Some are men of action and some are not. An example of a man of action is a citizen named Gary Kness. Gary participated in one of the most notorious police shootings in the 20th century: Newhall California April 1970 in which two suspects shot and killed four highway patrolmen on a traffic stop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_Massacre

Gary, a Marine, was truly a hero. After seeing officers going down, he ran into the fight unarmed in an attempt to drag one of the downed officers to cover. He then picked up a shotgun and attempted to stop one of the suspects but the shotgun was empty. Kness picked up the officer's revolver and fired the one remaining round at one suspect, striking him with fragments of the deflected round. Unfortunately, the fragments did not stop the suspect and having no loaded arms to continue the fight, Kness had to flee himself after he saw the fourth and final officer go down. Kness survived the incident and the suspects fled. Gary is an example of what some men (and women) are capable of and what some are not. To the Gary Knesses of the world, you have my deepest and dearest appreciation.
 
Last edited:
WWYD

bds32,

Thanks for posting the link to a more complete and accurate account. Reading the original post, then the newspaper account, and now the report you linked, my view of the events has evolved considerably.

Whatever else I should do, I am a citizen of the world of humanity and am obliged to help the good. Being the best witness I can be is the minimum. If that means staying out of it and just watching (or videotaping) is the sum total, so be it.

If I am not sure I will not make the situation worse, I will stay out of it.

If I am not tactically trained, to approach an ongoing struggle between a fleeing suspect and a (wounded) police officer is not a sound move. Better I should render aid to the fallen officer, I think.

If I am tactically trained, perhaps even familiar with the local jurisdiction's procedures and rules of engagement, I would join the struggle. But I have to consider that the officer does not know if I am there to help him or I might be an accomplice of the suspect. Other armed citizens might not be able to tell the difference, either. Good tactics take all factors into account.

But if a shot should present itself where all the following criteria were satisified: my intervention appeared necessary to stop an ongoing danger or prevent an imminent one, my intervention was safe for innocent bystanders, I am darn sure I have targeted the right person.

What did I leave out?

Given the scenario that is playing out in my mind's eye now, I would say I would not shoot. And probably regret it later. (My tactical training is dated and slim.)

Lost Sheep
 
Any decision based on using a firearm in todays world have a good lawyer, I don't believe it should be that way when attempting to help someone but it simply is.
 
A hypothetical senario: If you were at the gun range/sportmens club and you witnessed two officers attempting to arrest someone. Ok now that person starts shooting and both officers go down. What do you do?
Click to expand...


I'd be thinking to myself, "Self, what in blazes would possess the cops to try to make an arrest of a dangerous criminal in a circumstance were he's known to have loaded weapons at the ready?" :confused:
 
I'd be thinking to myself, "Self, what in blazes would possess the cops to try to make an arrest of a dangerous criminal in a circumstance were he's known to have loaded weapons at the ready?"
Click to expand...

Their duty. The weapon wasn't at the ready. It was concealed just like it could have been five miles away from the range or in the living room of his house. This is a non issue.
 
Their duty. The weapon wasn't at the ready. It was concealed just like it could have been five miles away from the range or in the living room of his house. This is a non issue.
Click to expand...

I disagree, While it is true that the weapon was concealed, and I will concede that it could have happened anywhere, the fact still remains that they confronted him at a gun range, a place where the probability was more likely than not that he could/would have access to a loaded weapon.


Their duty.
Click to expand...

Quite, but it is also their duty to use common sense and, to return home safely.
 
"Self, what in blazes would possess the cops to try to make an arrest of a dangerous criminal in a circumstance were he's known to have loaded weapons at the ready?"
Click to expand...

Following Orders. LEOs, just like soldiers, sailors and marines, get orders from superiors which they follow to the best of their ability. Some of them are asinine, some of them are downright stupid... but you don't tell the Lieutenant that, you follow the last order given.
As has already been pointed out in this thread by residents of the state in question and several practicing LEOs, in DV situations there is a duty to act and waiting is not acceptable. I think it is also worth mentioning that we currently live in a climate where a couple of nut cases with a grudge have decided to shoot up a church/nursing home/civic center and give the rest of us a bad name. You don't want to be the police lieutenant who told his officers to hold off a day to arrest Jiverly Wong.
 
If the police went to a gun range to arrest someone they would probably bring more than enough firepower and officers.
Click to expand...

They didn't, this actually happened and 2 Florida LEOs are dead now because of it. Whoever sent them there made a horrible tactical error. A gun range has to be the dumbest possible place to attempt an arrest. While ultimate responsibility lies in the hands of the shooter (who is also dead now) some of the blame falls on whoever made the call to send these two officers to a gun range to arrest someone who they knew was predisposed to violence.
 
May I add, as a resident of the county next to Okaloosa where the shooter was stopped and rightfully killed, the sheriffs dept of the slain officers realize mistakes in tactics were made and surronding counties are also implementing this case in training of all LEO's from patrolmen on up...
Brent
 
Following Orders. LEOs, just like soldiers, sailors and marines, get orders from superiors which they follow to the best of their ability.
Click to expand...

Sorry, gonna call BS on that one. Sure if you are given an order in the mil. you are gonna follow it...to a point.

If ordered to "step on that land mine" You get my drift.

Whoever sent them there made a horrible tactical error.
Click to expand...

Seriously? At what point does "common sense" kick in?


Commander: "You and your partner go over to the shooting range and arrest this violent, wife beating SOB"

Patrolman: "No problem boss, we'll be right behind you"

/sarcasm

At some point you must know your own limitations, it was foolhardy, at least, for these officers to try this.

You don't want to be the police lieutenant who told his officers to hold off a day to arrest Jiverly Wong.
Click to expand...


You can also send officers to follow him at a distance until he is in an environment that would be tactically better than a live fire shooting range to attempt an arrest.

Orders do not mitigate the personal initiative to not put yourself in this kind of situation.
 
Tactically better? Like the mall? You are afraid to confront at the range while perp is out side of his vehicle with no visible weapon at ready... So you rather let him enter the truck and leave with known weapons at his ready? To go to a "tactically better" location? I am not a cop and didn't sleep at a holiday inn express last night but I think I got a better rational on this... Take him into custody ASAP! At least at the range the innocent bystanders are armed! Unfortunately the parking lot is many yards from the firing line so those folks were not able to shoot back!
Brent
 
At least at the range the innocent bystanders are armed!
Click to expand...

While I cannot argue this particular bit of your logic, this part is where it gets fuzzy;

You are afraid to confront at the range while perp is out side of his vehicle with no visible weapon at ready.
Click to expand...

Just speaking from my own personal experience but, if you catch me between the range, and my vehicle,(the story linked did not say where on the range this took place) you can be pretty sure that I will have a minimum of 1 weapon ready. Depending on what went with me that day, once I get to the car most go in the back of the truck or car trunk, and my carry weapon is not as easily accessed in the car as it would be in the open.

The other thing that disturbs me is that the story says they were having trouble cuffing him, sounds like that given his history, and the location, not nearly enough officers were present, but I digress.

As for the question of shooting the suspect, no. unless he is sending lead my way I will cover and observe. If he's firing indiscriminately all bets are off and he may expect heavy resistance.

Tactically better? Like the mall?
Click to expand...

This statement assumes a lot, again I go to what I know (which may not be much) but most outdoor ranges here are, by design, in rural areas. Lot's of roadway between A and B.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top