A "Helping the Cops" Scenario ...

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Please keep in mind that this is all the information you have. You know nothing about any crimes the person may or may not have committed.
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Oh, is that all the information I have?! LOL

Well, you'd actually know he just committed two murders (or attempted murders) before your eyes and you'd know that you're a witness. You'd also know that the would be murderer knows everyone is armed. While you're deciding what to do, he's already shown that he's willing to act quickly and decisively.

Trying to decide what one would do makes for amusing reading, because it isn't possible to know how we'd react. If I were a betting sorta guy, I'd bet on the outcome being settled in favor of he who doesn't dither--what ever action he may choose. If you're holding a loaded skeet gun at 10 yds, why not settle it in your favor?

That might be better than news headlines saying "Two Officers shot at skeet range while shooters stand there and watch the killer drive away."

Of course, in Hollywood, you'd yell "Freeze" while you pointed guns at each other and said "put the gun down"--"no, you put your gun down".:D
 
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Where Are You...

There can be NO hesitation as soon as the opportunity/shot is cleared tactically after the Bright Line (see my earlier post on Florida law) has been and remains crossed. As John Bernard Books - John Wayne's character in his last movie The Shootist stated - You Must Be WILLING.

"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts, it's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull a trigger. I won't."

You can not be looking for wiggle room or a gray area here. The threat exists, and needs to be stopped. Looking for a Third Middle Compromise Solution leads to hesitation, which will lead to you not dealing with your responsibilities in a timely manner. It is you - not the person or persons presenting the threat - that you are responsible for.

Remember, the first shot you make should be the first indication to the shooter that they have an altered situation. In this case, the shooter had been concentrating on the now-shot LEO's, so by firing you are an unexpected problem from an unknown location.
 
I say if you are in a position to prevent one or both the LEO's being killed then you should absolutely engage the shooter. More than likely by the time your brain has registered the threat and asessed the situation that will not be possible. In this case I think the best course of action would be to have your self and your weapon in a position in which you can engage in a quarter second or less should the shooter begin to turn your or any one else's way. If he leaves immediately as he did in this situation then let him do so and make your best effort to tend to the wounded officers.
 
In this situation with the BG shooting 2 cops and leaving I would try to aid the LEOs as best I could. Let the BG run, they will catch him soon, just as they did in real life.

Was Rambo on TV lately or something?
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The OP didn't say ask what we would have done in the same exact situation as recently occurred in real life. He used the phrase "hypothetical senario[sic]."

When I imagined this hypothetical scenario, I imagined him standing over the two officers and then looking up at me, realizing that I'm a witness.

I have taken security officer training many moons ago (though I never did the job). What I was taught is that if the guy shows that he is willing to blow people away for no good reason, then go ahead and take him out.

My question to those who wouldn't shoot in the OP's hypothetical scenario: what happens if he turns the gun on you?

As for me, he is a murderer, cold and callous, and I have a legitimate reason to believe he may kill me next. So I shoot.
 
There needs to be a whole new chapter in the cop manual put in, with just one sentence in it: DO NOT CONFRONT A NUTCASE AT A SHOOTING RANGE.

:rolleyes:
 
Although I will point out that if what you are describing passes as a gun range and sportsman's club in your area, you need to upgrade some!
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You have no idea.... that's the classiest joint around.:eek::D There are a few more, some even have trap and skeet ranges but that's about as good as it gets.
 
As much as I'd like to help, unless I was instructed by the LEOs involved in the scenario, I will most likely stay out of it.

There is just too great a liability legally to volunteer in such situation (too many darn lawyers like to sue), however, I would help to retreat the injured officers if possible. (without encountering the BG)

Nevertheless, if the dude starting to shoot at me...that's another story.
 
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I read all of the first page of responses, and a couple in the second. Forgive me if I repeat a point that has already been made.

"all that is required for evil to succed is for good men to stand idly by and do nothing"

I'm sure almost everyone here is familiar with that quote. With that quote, I don't think there's any state in the union that would actually convict someone because he engaged a man that just iced two cops. Where I'm from they'd call you a hero. In Cali you would be exonerated but lectured about vigilantism. The bottom line? If I see that, I shoot until bad guy doesn't move. I remove weapon from bad guy and detain him with handcuffs from LEO. Order someone to call 911, and then triage (with help from others) LEOs and bad guy in an effort to save their lives.

I understand ROEs and our duty as armed citizens. We are not LEOs. I know this. It's not our job to go out and seek crimes to stop. I don't suggest that we all walk around like a bunch of cowboys. I refuse, however, to stand idly by and watch a heinous crime take place. ESPECIALLY letting an armed man who just used lethal force on two LEOs get away to potentially harm someone else.

Say what you want. In certain liberal courts this may be viewed as "not wrong but not the best judgement", but anyone with half a brain should be able to look at this situation and do what needs to be done if they are confident in their ability to do it. We don't need to be so paralyzed by legal concerns that we're effectively castrated.




And for the record, I think showing up at a live fire range to arrest a man is absolutely rediculous. Let's see, where is the absolute greatest chance of encountering a man when he is not only armed, but already has his weapon at the ready?
 
I've been thinking about this scenario all day.

I think that I would be in such complete shock, I would have no idea what to do. I simply would not believe what I had just seen. The following would pop into my head: "Is this a movie no one told me was filming"? "Is this a practical joke"? "Am I high off my ass right now"?

I figure if the guy started heading towards me with his gun drawn I would empty my magazine into him, but I have to say, the shock of the situation would be considerable. I don't usually observe cops being gunned down in front of me.

Maybe if I lived on the Mexican border things would be a little different...
 
Florida Situation Regarding Civil Penalities

There is just too great a liability to volunteer in such situation, however, I would help to retreat the injured officers if possible. (without encountering the BG)
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the Florida Law reads as follows -

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.--

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

If you have this legal condition, you have no problems in the situation being discussed.
 
I think he would be argueing with my 44 mags (Vaquaro's & Marlin rifle)

Bugga the consequences, I think I would be going for him first, His vehicle second (tires and gas tank to stuff up his getaway), be on the phone to 911 & trying to be the best witness I could, then try to assist the downed LE's.

I am not sure in which order, or what could be done in the short time (and what is acheiveable due to circumstances), but I would do my best.

I think I would feel worse not trying anything and just hiding.... not a hero, don't want to be....

Would be so many decisions to make in an unbelievably short thime :eek:

Condolences to the LEO's families & loved ones
 
SABC

Reading this made me go check my rangebag and check the status of my first-aid kit, and when I get to work tomorrow I am going to take a refresher on SABC (Self Aid Buddy Care) and I need to replace my outdated Quik-Clot with the new stuff. http://www.quikclot.com/ I would like to think I would have taken at least a couple pot shots at him.
 
My question to those who wouldn't shoot in the OP's hypothetical scenario: what happens if he turns the gun on you?
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Then you try to shoot him, of course. That is very different than shooting him because he MIGHT do something to you, you now have a direct threat to your well being.
 
Here's something to think of. Different areas of the country have completely different ideas of armed citizens. I think if I were to find myself in this situation, local police would not treat me like a hero but rather charge me with something. Some law enforcement really do not appreciate any help. Knowing that, I'd be hesitant to react. In all honesty, I'd likely kill the bad guy regardless.
 
When I took my CHL class the sheriffs deputy teaching it gave an explaination of why he is a CHL instructor. On a normal afternoon a deputy saw a car run a red light pulled it car over. There were four guys in the car and when the cop got out of his squad car the men got out and opened fire on him. He was immediatly hit in his strong hand and could not return fire and was rolling around on the ground while being shot at. A CHL holder pulled over and returned fire at the BGs. I cant recall if he accually hit his target(s) but that cop is alive today and those guys are in jail. Not saying to do this but Id think if you saw something like that go down you better be ready to make a decision quikly. This is true it happened in Houston. The CHL guy got the 100 club award that year.
 
I agree with Swamp Yankee. My first answer to what I would do was that I would shoot but, now that I have thought about it for awhile. I will amend it. I hope that I would have enough snap to get over the intial disbelief and shock of what I witnessed to make at least a half intelligent decision based on the specific events. I will also add that I do not think I could ever argue my right to conceal carry if I stood by and did nothing.


When I first read the story posted by hogdogs in the general discussion. It caught me by suprise. I think back to all the times I have considered what-if this and what-if that. This scenario has never crossed my mind before. I mean I remember all the times I have been to the range and while saftey is my main focus the range is a place I go to relax.
 
They may charge you with something, but I highly doubt it would ever stick. And regardless, the last thing on anyones mind at that point should be "I wonder if I'm gonna get in trouble for stopping a cop killer". Like I said, we all need to (and I think everyone here DOES) understand that we aren't cowboys. We're not here to act like LEOs. We need to know the ROEs. And we NEED to not be so concerned over litigation that we are too frozen to act on such scenario where trouble may find us even though we're not looking for it.

I reiterate. I would engage bad guy until it is clear that he is no longer a threat, then detain him, then begin first aid. If the situation ever comes up and I go to jail for it, then I will spend my time in jail with a clean conscience.
 
^ that is so true^

But if one LEO was gunned down, then an armed citizen shot/killed/disabled the killer before he got to shoot the second LEO, I'm sure the second LEO, his wife and kids would have been VERY grateful.....

instead of devistated :(
 
I reiterate. I would engage bad guy until it is clear that he is no longer a threat, then detain him, then begin first aid.
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And that is why I suggest letting the BG go. Nothing against the poster directly, you just put it into the shortest sentence<G>! Engage BG until clear, then detain him. Takes some time there. Might take a lot of time. In fact, it has a fairly high potential of turning into hours due to hostage/barricaded suspect, etc. During all that time two officers are down, shot, needing medical attention. Those officers are the main concern to me (after making sure I don't join them), not the BG. We can go get the BG any time. Dpending on the extent of the injury, those officers might be on a very short clock.
 
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