Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
David,
Would it change your reaction if it was clear that the officers were beyond saving?
Would it change your reaction if it was clear that the officers were beyond saving?
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A "Helping the Cops" Scenario ...
- Thread starter Stuohn
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SquidWarrior
New member
When it comes to situations like this, there are four simple words to remember.
Totality of the Circumstances.
Keep those words in mind, and in any situation they will guide you to do the right thing.
Totality of the Circumstances.
Keep those words in mind, and in any situation they will guide you to do the right thing.
And that is why I suggest letting the BG go. Nothing against the poster directly, you just put it into the shortest sentence<G>! Engage BG until clear, then detain him. Takes some time there. Might take a lot of time. In fact, it has a fairly high potential of turning into hours due to hostage/barricaded suspect, etc. During all that time two officers are down, shot, needing medical attention. Those officers are the main concern to me (after making sure I don't join them), not the BG. We can go get the BG any time. Dpending on the extent of the injury, those officers might be on a very short clock.Well, yeah you bring up a good point. I was going off of the base assumption that this whole deal takes place right in front of my eyes, I engage until dufass stops moving, take his weapon, cuff him with the cops' cuffs, and administer first aid as needed.
Obviously the priority is for the wounded LEOs over trying to catch the criminal if he was wounded and ran away. You have to make judgment calls, and my judgment wouldn't tell me to ignore the wounded LEOs to get in a high speed chase with the criminal. I MAY would follow to the parking lot to get license plates, but rest assured my attention would turn to first aid very quickly.
as a LEO, i would hope that my fellow citizens would indeed come to my aid if i were to fall. both in armed defense and aid.
IMHO, he just shot two uniformed officers, he is an active shooter, and all lives are now at risk. plain and simple.
reminds me of the youtube vid where the cop pulls over a pursuit, sprays the driver, turns his back and gets shot 5 times. the driver then runs over the officer and attempts to do it a second time. a former marine tells his son to call 911, grabs the fallen officer's sidearm and quickly puts two into the chest of the driver. BG dies.cop dies. ex-marine is somewhat of a hero...though later he himself gets into some kind of trouble over something else.
IMHO, he just shot two uniformed officers, he is an active shooter, and all lives are now at risk. plain and simple.
reminds me of the youtube vid where the cop pulls over a pursuit, sprays the driver, turns his back and gets shot 5 times. the driver then runs over the officer and attempts to do it a second time. a former marine tells his son to call 911, grabs the fallen officer's sidearm and quickly puts two into the chest of the driver. BG dies.cop dies. ex-marine is somewhat of a hero...though later he himself gets into some kind of trouble over something else.
I dont see how so many people would allow the bad guy to walk off when the shooting was 10 YARDS away.
Reasons Id shoot:
Protect officers, maybe their wounded and he is about to try and hit them while there down
Protect myself, shooter is CLOSE
Protect othjer civilians, how do you know that he wont murder a family to steal their car and escape.
Reasons Id shoot:
Protect officers, maybe their wounded and he is about to try and hit them while there down
Protect myself, shooter is CLOSE
Protect othjer civilians, how do you know that he wont murder a family to steal their car and escape.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Given modern medicine I'm not sure how it would be clear, but yes, if their heads were chopped off or something like that where it is obvious there is no hope, then saving their lives as the main priority would be sort of silly. I still don't see getting into a gunfight with the BG as a particularly good response unless you are threatened.Would it change your reaction if it was clear that the officers were beyond saving?
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David Armstrong
Moderator
But there is the problem. Your plan is based on everything going right, and that rarely happens. Your scenario is you shoot, BG quits being a problem. What happens when you shoot and BG becomes MORE of a problem? I'd rather go with the "let the BG go away" plan first. If that doesn't work, then we can try the "shoot at BG" plan.I engage until dufass stops moving, take his weapon, cuff him with the cops' cuffs, and administer first aid as needed.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Occam's Razor:
1. If he is a direct threat to you, do what it takes to reduce that threat based on these options.
a. Shoot him and KNOW what you are doing
or
b. Disengage safely
2. If he is a direct threat to others, still shooting - or threatening to:
a. Shoot him and KNOW what you are doing
or
b. Disengage safely if your own safety is a priority
3. If he is fleeing:
a. Let him
b. Call for help
c. Render aid to those who need it
Be aware that there no gurantee that you will win the fight. Tyler Courthose and Tacom Mall incidents should be required reading for those who postulate they will immediately hit the target and win the fight.
1. If he is a direct threat to you, do what it takes to reduce that threat based on these options.
a. Shoot him and KNOW what you are doing
or
b. Disengage safely
2. If he is a direct threat to others, still shooting - or threatening to:
a. Shoot him and KNOW what you are doing
or
b. Disengage safely if your own safety is a priority
3. If he is fleeing:
a. Let him
b. Call for help
c. Render aid to those who need it
Be aware that there no gurantee that you will win the fight. Tyler Courthose and Tacom Mall incidents should be required reading for those who postulate they will immediately hit the target and win the fight.
David Armstrong
Moderator
IF he does that, then the scenario changes quite a bit. But how about we wait to see if that is something he wants to try? If he starts to do that, we can then engage, right?Protect officers, maybe their wounded and he is about to try and hit them while there down
Is he any closer than he was before the shooting? And if he is that close, why do you want to give him any added incentive to shoot you? If he is threatening you that is one thing, but if he is not why draw attention to yourself?Protect myself, shooter is CLOSE
How do you know he won't go to prison and be instrumental in finding a cure for cancer? How do you know that if you engage he won't kill more people than if you let him go? How do you know ..................??Protect othjer civilians, how do you know that he wont murder a family to steal their car and escape.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Sounds like somebody just attended a good conference where they learned all sorts of interesting tactical stuff. Gonna fill us in on it??Be aware that there no gurantee that you will win the fight. Tyler Courthose and Tacom Mall incidents should be required reading for those who postulate they will immediately hit the target and win the fight.
Rich Miranda
New member
Then you try to shoot him, of course.
Hahaha! I actually laughed out loud. I guess if you ask a silly question.....Next time I'll try to use some gray matter while I type.
Seriously, though, this was an imagined scenario. We're all going to imagine it a little differently. Add to that the fact that we are all different people with different personalities, attitudes, and priorities, and our answers are going to be all over the place.
I think the important thing is that we (at least mentally) prepare for many different possible situations. We don't really "know" how we'll react, but if we walk through similar situations we'll be better prepared if they ever actually happen.
My question to those who wouldn't shoot in the OP's hypothetical scenario: what happens if he turns the gun on you?
At this point I would defend myself as I have been trained to do so. Until that time my thoughts would be on trying to save the 2 that were shot and prevent anyone else from getting shot by a stray bullet.
I gotta ask, any of you ever been in a fire fight? or been shot? or seen someone die? If not, then how can you say how you would react in that situation? Do you have military or LEO training? I am not talking about security guard stuff. Real guns are not the same as game playing on the TV.
Thinking with a clear head is number one in any situation.
KingEdward
New member
Here is why I would not shoot:
1) I would be trying to determine what is happening as to be able to answer later (to help Cops find the criminal) i.e. clothes, vehicle make, etc. probably from the farthest "safe" distance possible.
2) I would want the BG to flee so we can help the cops ASAP.
3) basic rule of SD - if I am not being threatened or if there is not opportunity,ability,jeopardy, fear for life, etc.
4) Am I so skilled that I know location/status of all bystanders, is there an accomplice somewhere watching me? etc.
Here is why I may decide to try and shoot the BG to stop him:
1) he becomes a threat to me.
2) he starts looking for others/shooting others.
3) he executes one of the downed officers
Most of my logic is based on me being what I am. I'm not a cop, I'm not an expert marksman, I'm not required to jump into the situation with a weapon.
Yes, I understand being of assistance and "doing the right thing".
I would try to give aid to / save the cops. That is number 1 for me. Number 1a is relaying good communication/info about the BG so he is caught.
Somewhere in there is getting home without going to the hospital first.
1) I would be trying to determine what is happening as to be able to answer later (to help Cops find the criminal) i.e. clothes, vehicle make, etc. probably from the farthest "safe" distance possible.
2) I would want the BG to flee so we can help the cops ASAP.
3) basic rule of SD - if I am not being threatened or if there is not opportunity,ability,jeopardy, fear for life, etc.
4) Am I so skilled that I know location/status of all bystanders, is there an accomplice somewhere watching me? etc.
Here is why I may decide to try and shoot the BG to stop him:
1) he becomes a threat to me.
2) he starts looking for others/shooting others.
3) he executes one of the downed officers
Most of my logic is based on me being what I am. I'm not a cop, I'm not an expert marksman, I'm not required to jump into the situation with a weapon.
Yes, I understand being of assistance and "doing the right thing".
I would try to give aid to / save the cops. That is number 1 for me. Number 1a is relaying good communication/info about the BG so he is caught.
Somewhere in there is getting home without going to the hospital first.
KingEdward
New member
2 of my buddies just got shot by BG, how would I react?
If I am next to my buddies when they are shot, then I am drawing and firing.
if I am at my car and they are 30 feet trailing behind, it is as follows...
Here is why I would not shoot:
1) I would be trying to determine what is happening as to be able to answer later (to help Cops find the criminal) i.e. clothes, vehicle make, etc. probably from the farthest "safe" distance possible.
2) I would want the BG to flee so we can help my friends.
3) basic rule of SD - if I am not being threatened or if there is not opportunity,ability,jeopardy, fear for life, etc.
4) Am I so skilled that I know location/status of all bystanders, is there an accomplice somewhere watching me? etc.
Here is why I may decide to try and shoot the BG to stop him:
1) he becomes a threat to me.
2) he starts looking for others/shooting others.
3) he executes one of my buddies
Most of my logic is based on me being what I am. I'm not a cop, I'm not an expert marksman, I'm not required to jump into the situation with a weapon.
Yes, I understand being of assistance and "doing the right thing".
I would try to give aid to / save my friends. That is number 1 for me. Number 1a is relaying good communication/info about the BG so he is caught.
Somewhere in there is getting home without going to the hospital first.
If I am next to my buddies when they are shot, then I am drawing and firing.
if I am at my car and they are 30 feet trailing behind, it is as follows...
Here is why I would not shoot:
1) I would be trying to determine what is happening as to be able to answer later (to help Cops find the criminal) i.e. clothes, vehicle make, etc. probably from the farthest "safe" distance possible.
2) I would want the BG to flee so we can help my friends.
3) basic rule of SD - if I am not being threatened or if there is not opportunity,ability,jeopardy, fear for life, etc.
4) Am I so skilled that I know location/status of all bystanders, is there an accomplice somewhere watching me? etc.
Here is why I may decide to try and shoot the BG to stop him:
1) he becomes a threat to me.
2) he starts looking for others/shooting others.
3) he executes one of my buddies
Most of my logic is based on me being what I am. I'm not a cop, I'm not an expert marksman, I'm not required to jump into the situation with a weapon.
Yes, I understand being of assistance and "doing the right thing".
I would try to give aid to / save my friends. That is number 1 for me. Number 1a is relaying good communication/info about the BG so he is caught.
Somewhere in there is getting home without going to the hospital first.
Hammerhead_6814
Inactive
If the police went to a gun range to arrest someone they would probably bring more than enough firepower and officers.
Assuming this unlikely scenario DID occur, I'd wait to see what he did immediantly after the officers went down. If he runs, I'm not going to try and confront someone who just downed two officers on my own. If he keeps shooting, then I'll step in. Of course I'd be dialing 911 the second he started shooting in the first place.
Assuming this unlikely scenario DID occur, I'd wait to see what he did immediantly after the officers went down. If he runs, I'm not going to try and confront someone who just downed two officers on my own. If he keeps shooting, then I'll step in. Of course I'd be dialing 911 the second he started shooting in the first place.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Could you do it under stress, with your heart racing and your blood pressure shooting throgh the roof, with him shooting at you while he is moving? If you can hit him, better plan on him also being able to hit you.Im not an expert marksman but at 10 yards i could hit him point shooting.
Rich Miranda
New member
I gotta ask, any of you ever been in a fire fight? or been shot? or seen someone die? If not, then how can you say how you would react in that situation? Do you have military or LEO training? I am not talking about security guard stuff. Real guns are not the same as game playing on the TV.
No, no, no, and another no.
If you read my posts you'll see that I agree that one can never really "know" how they'll act or react in any given situation.
As I stated before, in the situation that I imagine in my head, I feel that I'm very much in danger, so I try to gain the upper hand in said situation.
A couple of points:
- The last time I checked, I didn't need military or LEO training in order to defend myself.
- As a person who respects all honorable professions, I feel that your security officer comment is degrading to that profession. There are some very well trained and skilled armed guards out there.
As I stated before, we'll all act differently. I may get dead but so may you. Whatever you do, don't congratulate yourself too much. Or berate yourself either. Your choices are half chance, so are everyone else's.
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