38 S&W Special and 327 Federal Magnum are the limit of what one should expect to shoot well in a small gun. There's really no point in having a .357 capability, which was originally deemed an appropriate caliber in the Smith N frame (full size), since then reasonably compromised in the L frame/GP100/et al. Once below that mass category, one will start seeking out special loads for smaller guns like the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel specialty round. It is still a little flinch maker.
...a .38 special. "Don´t be a fool..."
- Thread starter Tarcante
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The little .38 special J-frame has saved a lot of lives over the years. It make good sense to have one, for certain situations.
I have among other 38's a Titanium J-frame. It's very light, but with a change of grips to one of the older wooden banana grips, it's not that bad to shoot, and carries well. With 125gr hollowpoints it's pretty much 100% reliable, no safeties, no mags to fall out or become disengaged, no jamming. It's pretty much 5 for sure. I have several little autos, but none are as fool proof, IMHO.
The little 38 still has a place in the picture.
I have among other 38's a Titanium J-frame. It's very light, but with a change of grips to one of the older wooden banana grips, it's not that bad to shoot, and carries well. With 125gr hollowpoints it's pretty much 100% reliable, no safeties, no mags to fall out or become disengaged, no jamming. It's pretty much 5 for sure. I have several little autos, but none are as fool proof, IMHO.
The little 38 still has a place in the picture.
back in the 1970s I learned that the 200gr LRN (then one of the "standard" loads, and carried by a lot of detectives) fired from a snub nose would not reliably penetrate a car windshield at point blank range!
The solution was simple, first, don't shoot the 200gr load at car windshields.
Second, if you do need to do that, find something that works better.
Some people just can't seem to wrap their minds around the fact that something that isn't the best tool possible isn't automatically useless.
Picking cases where the .38Spl failed is simply picking cases where it failed. EVERYTHING has cases where it failed. There is no magic bullet.
I can point you to a case where a man took 33 9mm torso hits before going down. Another man took a pair of 12ga slugs to the chest and ran away (he didn't run far, but he ran). Another case of a woman (cop) taking chest hit from a police .357, and still winning the fight.
my personal urge would be to give that gentleman in a suit a parting shot, something on the lines of "Hmmm, so by your reasoning, all the people killed with .38s aren't really dead then?"
Have a nice day!
The solution was simple, first, don't shoot the 200gr load at car windshields.
Second, if you do need to do that, find something that works better.
Some people just can't seem to wrap their minds around the fact that something that isn't the best tool possible isn't automatically useless.
Picking cases where the .38Spl failed is simply picking cases where it failed. EVERYTHING has cases where it failed. There is no magic bullet.
I can point you to a case where a man took 33 9mm torso hits before going down. Another man took a pair of 12ga slugs to the chest and ran away (he didn't run far, but he ran). Another case of a woman (cop) taking chest hit from a police .357, and still winning the fight.
my personal urge would be to give that gentleman in a suit a parting shot, something on the lines of "Hmmm, so by your reasoning, all the people killed with .38s aren't really dead then?"
Have a nice day!
44 AMP just a few years ago in Dallas the cops surounded a car that was in a car chase and opened fire at the windsheild. The 40S&W rounds didn't make it through the glass either. Their soft hollow points flattened on the glass. I saw this myself on the news.
I think a 38 snub is a fine weapon. With the right ammo.
To the OP. I don't think I would ask suit guy for any advice on kids, marriage or finances either.
I think a 38 snub is a fine weapon. With the right ammo.
To the OP. I don't think I would ask suit guy for any advice on kids, marriage or finances either.
Ballistics wise, the .38 is kinda marginal
Twenty years ago I wouldn't have given defensive ammo from a .38 a chance in hell of meeting my needs.
Modern testing and bullet design have changed that.
Also, the FBI requirements as a result of their '86 shootout fiasco are great and all, but we are talking about the FBI who decided that the 10MM was the answer to all of their problems.
Twenty years ago I wouldn't have given defensive ammo from a .38 a chance in hell of meeting my needs.
Modern testing and bullet design have changed that.
Also, the FBI requirements as a result of their '86 shootout fiasco are great and all, but we are talking about the FBI who decided that the 10MM was the answer to all of their problems.
Dragline45
New member
I think it's funny he told you don't be a fool, with him spewing such foolish statements. Nothing he said to you is correct.
Mike Irwin
Staff
135-gr. Speer Gold Dot loads developed specifically for snub-nose revolvers have shown that they can not only penetrate deeply, but also expand consistently.
Some years ago I shot a number of them from my Model 042 S&W into a water filled garbage can.
All of them expanded to close to half an inch and penetration on some appeared to be in excess of 15 inches, which matches up fairly well with not only gelatin testing of the rounds but apparently also with the shootings in which they have been used.
Some years ago I shot a number of them from my Model 042 S&W into a water filled garbage can.
All of them expanded to close to half an inch and penetration on some appeared to be in excess of 15 inches, which matches up fairly well with not only gelatin testing of the rounds but apparently also with the shootings in which they have been used.
Model12Win
Moderator
Ask Lee Harvey Oswald about how ineffective a .38 snub is.
Oh wait, he died from one.
Oh wait, he died from one.
Crankgrinder
New member
"not much reason to get a 38-only snub, with the very lightweight J-frames available that shoot both 357 and 38. Who knows, you might need to shoot a bear someday." A .357 loses much of the power that makes it a "357" in short barrels. You'll be lucky to get 9mm velocity out of that 2" barrel. Shoot that grizzly with that and see what happens next.
H.W. French
New member
Bullets, bone and toe tags.
A forensic pathologist would certainly disagree with that dude.
A forensic pathologist would certainly disagree with that dude.
Bill DeShivs
New member
No, you don't.
These tests say it's more like an extra 200 fps in a short barrel, http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html and http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html
Cosmodragoon
New member
Crankgrinder wrote:
Remember that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. All that lost power ends up as an unpleasant blast in the .357 snub. Combine that with the intense recoil, especially in light-weight alloy guns, and we've got good reason to reconsider the classic .38 special.
Remember that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. All that lost power ends up as an unpleasant blast in the .357 snub. Combine that with the intense recoil, especially in light-weight alloy guns, and we've got good reason to reconsider the classic .38 special.
If I look at the ballisticsbytheinch numbers, pretty much everything more powerful than a .22 or .25 loses a lot of velocity in a short barrel, including 38 special. So it's not just a 357 magnum issue, though some rounds lose more than others going from say 6" to 2" barrel. If you want a small concealable gun, there's a performance price to pay...
Jeff, as I have said before the BBTI numbers are flawed. I do not know if it was their testing, equipment or methodology. I believe by using a contender with a 2" barrel it would be like shooting a revolver without a barrel.
In real life guns you are going to get about 700 fps from a 125 grain bullet fired from a 2" 38 special. You will get about 1200 feet per second from a 357 magnum firing the same bullet from a 2" barrel. I was getting 1250 fps from 145 grain Winchester STHP's from my 2"S&W. Of course barrel length affects velocity and thus performance. That is why all of my revolvers now have at least a 3" barrel.
This whole thread is full of 38 love. I for one have seen real people shot with the 38 and the 357, there is a real difference in how people react. Just because an untreated wound is ultimately fatal is not the issue. Did it immediately stop hostilities? The only way I will carry a 38 is as a BUG, but that role is currently taken by a 40 Shield.
The ONLY legitimate reason to carry a 38 is if one cannot handle a 357. I get it, there are smaller shooters, women people with health issues etc.
I don't really care what anyone carries, I just dislike rationalization and misinformation as a way to justify using a lesser defensive weapon, especially where new shooters may be influenced. Carrying a handgun is a personal issue, of course people want to feel good about their choice, want it to be the correct choice.
Every defensive weapon choice is a compromise. There are many like me who have dealt with the evil people in our world and compromise with a bigger more powerful gun that is more difficult to carry. There are those with similar experience who either don't carry or carry the smallest thing you can call a gun.
In real life guns you are going to get about 700 fps from a 125 grain bullet fired from a 2" 38 special. You will get about 1200 feet per second from a 357 magnum firing the same bullet from a 2" barrel. I was getting 1250 fps from 145 grain Winchester STHP's from my 2"S&W. Of course barrel length affects velocity and thus performance. That is why all of my revolvers now have at least a 3" barrel.
This whole thread is full of 38 love. I for one have seen real people shot with the 38 and the 357, there is a real difference in how people react. Just because an untreated wound is ultimately fatal is not the issue. Did it immediately stop hostilities? The only way I will carry a 38 is as a BUG, but that role is currently taken by a 40 Shield.
The ONLY legitimate reason to carry a 38 is if one cannot handle a 357. I get it, there are smaller shooters, women people with health issues etc.
I don't really care what anyone carries, I just dislike rationalization and misinformation as a way to justify using a lesser defensive weapon, especially where new shooters may be influenced. Carrying a handgun is a personal issue, of course people want to feel good about their choice, want it to be the correct choice.
Every defensive weapon choice is a compromise. There are many like me who have dealt with the evil people in our world and compromise with a bigger more powerful gun that is more difficult to carry. There are those with similar experience who either don't carry or carry the smallest thing you can call a gun.
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