A .357 magnum .38 special +P
- Thread starter HighValleyRanch
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stinkeypete
New member
I’m so old that I only learned recently what “.38 +p” meant. We used to call that “maximum load, only for sturdy revolvers in good condition.” Same thing.
A direct quote from this article:
Loads that are designated as “.38 Special +P” have slightly higher pressure and velocity than a standard .38 Special load, but still far less than a .357 Magnum. With very few exceptions, current production .38 Special revolvers are easily able to withstand the pressure of +P ammo. One of our test loads is designated at +P+. It’s a high pressure .38 Special load that is still well below typical .357 Magnum levels, but exceeds the official threshold for .38 +P established by SAAMI.
Don't know about y'all, but to me this says that pushing a 38 Special to 357 performance levels risks blowing up cylinders and maybe losing a few fingers.
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+P has a defined pressure limit. For the 38 Special it means an average pressure of 20,000 psi, which is above the standard 38 Special pressure of 17,000 psi. +P+ is above this with no SAAMI specified limit. The +P+ load used on the Lucky Gunner website, Winchester’s 110 grain Ranger, has a maximum average pressure of 23,500 psi, according to an old publication (#270, circa 2005).
SAAMI's current maximum average pressure proof load for the 38 Special is 29,500 psi. If a cylinder can handle the proof load, it can handle +P and the +P+ ammo used in Lucky Gunner's data. The use of +P, and +P+, ammo generally results in increased wear due to increased recoil.
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
Velocity for some loads can be increased significantly and still remain within SAAMI established pressure limits by using the right components, with much of the credit going to the right gunpowder.
HighValleyRanch
New member
EXACTLY. Pressure and performance are not the same.
According to the Elmer video, he states that Elmer probably blew the cylinder because he ran out of the right size bullets and the larger bullet size he used cause too high a pressure.
Buffalo Bore states that their ammo (in this case, the .38 special +P) is safe to use in any revolver where the manufacture states that +P is OK.
Physics is physics. A 158 grain bullet going at 1000 fps is exactly the same, no matter if it was from a .38 +P or .357 magnum. Recoil is the same, muzzle energy the same, etc, etc.
What on God's green earth has that got to do with pushing a 38 Special cartridge up to 357 performance levels? A 38 Special case is a 38 Special case. It is going to fit in a 38 Special chamber. Unless of course you stuff a Godzilla bullet in it. Nothing to even consider much less reflect on. Nobody here has even remotely suggested trying to stuff a 357 cartridge into a 38 Special revolver.
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All fine and good. But to get to 357 performance levels out of a 38 Special cartridge, seems you would have to exceed those pressures to dangerous levels.
Pushing a .38 special cartridge up to .357 pressure/performance levels is what S&W did developing the .357Magnum. They didn't use the terms +p or +p+, and SAAMI was decades in the future. They used terms like Hi-vel (high velocity) and specifically the name .38/44. Sometimes seen as .38-44.
This refers not only to certain S&W guns but also the ammo for them. It does NOT refer to a .38 cal bullet in a necked down 44 cal case, it refers to a standard .38 Special case, loaded to a higher than standard pressure, intended for use only in the large frame (44 size frame now known as the "N frame").
Further experimentation showed that they could safely raise the pressure (in the .38 Special case) even more, in the large frame guns. This became the .357 Magnum, and because that high level of pressure was only safe in the large frame S&Ws, and potentially dangerous in smaller .38 special guns, S&W made the case .135" longer than the .38 special case, SO THAT it would NOT chamber in a .38 special gun.
In simple terms, they made the .357 longer to keep the high pressure OUT of .38 special guns where it was dangerous.
That's what it has to do with pushing a .38 special up to .357 levels. S&W specifically designed the .357 not to fit in a .38 gun to keep people SAFE.
You can (meaning it is physically possible) to create .357 pressure (or even higher) in a .38 Special case, but it is barking stupid to do so. What is under discussion is not raising .38s to .357 pressure but increasing .38 pressure (and thereby performance above standard but well below .357 pressures. This is the whole point of +p and +p+ loads. To get more than standard .38 Special without going all the way to .357 pressure.
Nothing to reflect on? I disagree.
Well, we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree.
The subject of the thread is pushing a 38 Special up to 357 mag performance. The title of the thread is "A .357 magnum .38 special +P".
No reason at all to be concerned with the length of the 357 case not fitting in a 38 Special. No reason to even discuss the pressures of a 357 or why they can be achieved due to the size of the case. All that is relevant in the comparison are bullet weight and velocity. To equal what a 357 can do regarding those two things using a 38 Special case, it is impossible to achieve without GREATLY exceeding SAAMI pressure maximums for the 38 Special.
A comparison of velocity alone with the 38 Special case round using a lighter bullet than the 357 round is NOT A VALID COMPARISON. Such is NOT EQUAL to a 357.
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No, its not. You are mistaken.
That is the title, and these are the first two lines of the OP
Note the use of the word "some", and the reference to the .38/44 loads. The original post is NOT talking about jacking the .38 up to .357 mag performance.
I hope HighValleyRanch will post and expand/explain what he meant in the original post starting the thread What I got out of it was an example of where a certain .38+p load actually delivers higher velocity than some .357 loads, from his gun.
You flat missed the point of his post completely. The .357 Mag case is longer so it won't fit into a 38 Spl cylinder because the Peak pressure difference between two calibers is so large. The SAAMI peak pressure for .38 Spl is 17,000psi, the .38 Spl +P is 18,500psi, and the .357 Mag is 35,000psi.
The .357 Mag case is thicker to contain the more than double peak pressure over that of the .38 Spl and it's longer in large part so idiots don't try to shoot a .357 Mag round in a gun designed for .38 Spl. It's that simple. If you want to risk blowing up your gun and crippling yourself, then you have the right to do dumb things.
However, if you were to do that and injure someone else, those people could and likely would sue you for everything you own right down to your underwear . . . . and win. Further, you might also be in for criminal charges depending upon what your local DA thought about your "wanton disregard for other's safety."
HighValleyRanch
New member
44 AMP got the point.
My post does not claim that you can push .38 special +P to equal the hottest .357.
I use examples where the .38 +P overlaps what people consider mid power loads such as magtech and armscor.
The reason for my creating this thread is that people too often generalize .38 special, .38 special +P and .357 magnum without actually discussing what load or actual data is being used.
But there is a good amount of overlap as I presented in my data and chrongraphed loads.
Can a .357 be more powerful than a .38 special +P.....yes
Can a .38 special (+P) be more powerful than what is claimed as a .357 magnum? Yes.
Can that same .38 special +P be as powerful as the hottest .357 loads....NO
I know that some people think just because they are shooting .357 that they are shooting "full house" loads. Maybe they are using the data on the box but don't realize that the company used a 6 inch barrel instead of a 2" barrel.
I've seen threads where the shooting forums recommend that people going into the woods carry a minimum of .357 for big cats and bears. Some poor unknowing individual might believe all the stats on the box and think his "full house" load is adequate where in reality if they had chrongraphed the load they might discover that in reality they are only carrying a .38 special +P load. That is why I encourage the actual testing of the loads so you know what you are actually carrying.
This all came about because I was testing my Buffalobore .38 special +P outdoorsman. I noticed that the recoil felt identical to some .357 ammo I had been shooting. So I did the test and found that they were almost identical with the BB loads a little hotter. In a blind test, my brother could not tell the difference.
I live in the woods and there are plenty of four legged critters for me to want to carry around the ranch for whatever reasons. I prefer to carry my lightweight .38 special LCRX all day working, so want the hottest HC loads it can handle. The BB loads are in the 425 ft pound range with 158 grain hardcast, and although I could be carry my heavier .357 with the 180 grain loads, everything is a balance of compromises. Therefore in this case I carry .38 special over .357. Snake shot on my belt as well. Now when I go up into high country, it wil be the .357 in the 2' Kimber and I know that I have over 600 pounds of ME with 180 grain hardcast.
Thank you for that explanation.
I would also add, for consideration, the fact that while generally the guns and load performances are similar, each combination is unique and sometimes "the stars line up" and give results outside the expected norms.
I've seen guns deliver velocities 100fps different from the same barrel length, shooting the same ammunition. Its not common, the difference is usually much less, but it does happen.
I've also seen the pretty rare case of a 4" barrel clocking 15fps higher than an 8" barrel shooting the same ammo. This is due to factors specific to the guns being measured, and not general result. Some guns are "fast" and some are "slow" compared to the average.
So, while you get what you get, and you're entirely right to report what you got, always bear in mind that someone else, using as close to what you used as possible, could have very different results. Probably won't, but could.
I would also add, for consideration, the fact that while generally the guns and load performances are similar, each combination is unique and sometimes "the stars line up" and give results outside the expected norms.
I've seen guns deliver velocities 100fps different from the same barrel length, shooting the same ammunition. Its not common, the difference is usually much less, but it does happen.
I've also seen the pretty rare case of a 4" barrel clocking 15fps higher than an 8" barrel shooting the same ammo. This is due to factors specific to the guns being measured, and not general result. Some guns are "fast" and some are "slow" compared to the average.
So, while you get what you get, and you're entirely right to report what you got, always bear in mind that someone else, using as close to what you used as possible, could have very different results. Probably won't, but could.
HighValleyRanch
New member
I totally agree. Could be cylinder gap, bore size, etc.
Again, the mantra of why one needs to actually test their loads.....if they care to know the facts.
I usually and do five shots average, because I have seen some loads vary quite a bit, round to round.
That is why the one video I saw of the underwood where he stated 1355 fps, and he only did one round was suspect to me.
Again, ME is only one factor. Bullet design, bullet weight and design, and purpose of use are all part of the variable compromise. To me, ME represents the power potential. But as velocity increases the ME more than bullet weight, it cannot be the sole determiner.
I don't care how experience one thinks that they are, pure subjective "it felt like more wallop" doesn't cut the grain. Could be that the grips don't mitigate the recoil enough, that one didn't have that extra cup of coffee in the morning, your hold was too loose, you didn't have your earmuffs on properly.....etc
Again, the mantra of why one needs to actually test their loads.....if they care to know the facts.
I usually and do five shots average, because I have seen some loads vary quite a bit, round to round.
That is why the one video I saw of the underwood where he stated 1355 fps, and he only did one round was suspect to me.
Again, ME is only one factor. Bullet design, bullet weight and design, and purpose of use are all part of the variable compromise. To me, ME represents the power potential. But as velocity increases the ME more than bullet weight, it cannot be the sole determiner.
I don't care how experience one thinks that they are, pure subjective "it felt like more wallop" doesn't cut the grain. Could be that the grips don't mitigate the recoil enough, that one didn't have that extra cup of coffee in the morning, your hold was too loose, you didn't have your earmuffs on properly.....etc
Thank you for that!
I will concede that there is some overlap between a lower-powered 357 load and a souped-up 38 Special. But that in no way makes the two cartridges equal.
Probably would have been a good idea to leave "357" out of the title and just said something like "Super powerful 38+P load".
And I give you credit with coming up with a powerful 38 Special load!
Next question is whether or not it is wise to use such a souped-up hand load in a self-defense gun (with lawyers in mind). Probably should be an entirely different thread because caliber is irrelevant to the discussion.
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HighValleyRanch
New member
I stated that I am using that load for woods and critters carry, but BB does come up with a comparable lead hollow point that pretty much duplicates or slightly exceeds the old .38 special FBI load which was 158 grain lead bullet at around 1000 fps. Similar to the 38/44 which was more like 1200 fps.
It would be no different legally wise than having .357 in your carry revolver.
Again, there are going to be instances when your gun is chamber for just .38 special (+P) for whatever reason and these hotter loads give you more option. I had a beautiful Colt Official Police I wanted to carry around the ranch and wanted the woods load, and since that was built on the large frame similar to the python, it was OK to occasionally shoot +P in, similar to the Smith Outdoorsman. But sold it because it was too nice for everyday knock around carry and had the 6" barrel.
It would be no different legally wise than having .357 in your carry revolver.
Again, there are going to be instances when your gun is chamber for just .38 special (+P) for whatever reason and these hotter loads give you more option. I had a beautiful Colt Official Police I wanted to carry around the ranch and wanted the woods load, and since that was built on the large frame similar to the python, it was OK to occasionally shoot +P in, similar to the Smith Outdoorsman. But sold it because it was too nice for everyday knock around carry and had the 6" barrel.
Jim Watson
New member
A gunzine writer ran all calibers of a well known brand of high performance pistol ammo through a pressure-velocity test rig. Most were at or near advertised velocity and just under SAAMI maximum pressure. Except for the .38 Special +P. It gave 33000 ppsi, 94% of .357 Magnum and a 65% overload of .38 +P.
A guy here had some of it and it was vicious to fire. Didn't blow up the gun, though. Reportedly the manufacturer brought that round back to spec.
Phil Sharpe showed .38 loads right up there with .357. Unfortunately most with powders long discontinued.
Colt used to explicitly "rate" all their .38s for all ammo, even .38-44 in Detetective Special. Smith didn't.
A guy here had some of it and it was vicious to fire. Didn't blow up the gun, though. Reportedly the manufacturer brought that round back to spec.
Phil Sharpe showed .38 loads right up there with .357. Unfortunately most with powders long discontinued.
Colt used to explicitly "rate" all their .38s for all ammo, even .38-44 in Detetective Special. Smith didn't.
HighValleyRanch, I gave you a pretty hard time in this thread, and want to apologize.
Once we got it straightened out that you were not claiming to turn 38 Specials into 357 levels to compete head-to-head with 357s, and that what you really meant was that there is some over-lap in power between hot 38 Special loads and lower-powered 357 loads, I think you obviously know what you're doing at a reloading bench and commend your work.
I would like to try a few of those smokers.
And that you say you don't carry those spicy hand-loads for defensive carry, thereby neutering some over-reaching lawyer, tells me you have a good head on your shoulders generally speaking as well.
But since you don't intend them for defensive use, just what niche do you see the useful for? I can see using them to dispatch a feral hog now and then if one doesn't have a more appropriate gun.
Once we got it straightened out that you were not claiming to turn 38 Specials into 357 levels to compete head-to-head with 357s, and that what you really meant was that there is some over-lap in power between hot 38 Special loads and lower-powered 357 loads, I think you obviously know what you're doing at a reloading bench and commend your work.
I would like to try a few of those smokers.
And that you say you don't carry those spicy hand-loads for defensive carry, thereby neutering some over-reaching lawyer, tells me you have a good head on your shoulders generally speaking as well.
But since you don't intend them for defensive use, just what niche do you see the useful for? I can see using them to dispatch a feral hog now and then if one doesn't have a more appropriate gun.