A .357 magnum .38 special +P

H

HighValleyRanch

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Say you own a .38 special revolver, but want some .357 power out of it.
Say, something like the old 38/44 loads.

Here are some chronographed specs. I used my LCR .357 magnum for all three loads:

Armscor .357 mag 158 grain FMJ.........................966-986 fps
Magtech .357 158 grain FMJ................................1001, 10124 fps
Buffalo Bore 158 grain .38 +P Outdoorsman.........1024, 1027 fps

The above are out of a 1 7/8" barrel, so of course with a longer barrel, the velocities can bet much higher as 1237 fps with the BB .38 special +P in a 6.5 inch barrel (tested with Ruger Blackhawk)

So when they say the "lowly .38 special" you might want to rethink that. Just make sure your gun can handle the hotter loads. I have no qualms about shooting this through my 15 ounce 3" LCRX. I have shot it out of a Colt Official police as well, and the super lightweight 1 7/8" .38 LCR. Why carry something as heavy as a Smith Outdoorsman N frame .38 special when you can achieve the same with 1/3 the weight?

I know there are nay sayers who will accuse this thread of choosing and picking apples vs. oranges, but the point is to chronograph your own brands, because .357 magnum doesn't necessarily mean hotter than .38 special.

I am sure that one could achieve even higher ME by using lighter bullets at faster speeds, but the 158 grain was the common factor for comparison, and woods protection is the purpose of me wanting a heavier bullet in my .38. Yes, I could get the LCRX in the .357 magnum but then I'm back to the heavier weight.
 
Opinions, opinions, opinions. We all have them and they usually cause debate and even arguments.

To me, the difference in weight / concealability / ease of carry between an all steel 5-shot 357 and an airweight 38 isn't enough to sneeze at and from a real-life practical standpoint there is no difference worth considering. I say stuff a full-house Buffalo Bore 357 in a gun and compare that to a Buffalo Bore 38 +P, then you have a real comparison.
 
I already have. The hottest BB .357 magnum in the same gun gets 1246, 1250 for a muzzle energy of 625 ME ft. lbs. That is out of the .347 1 7/8 LCR. And of course that is 180 grain for the BB .357 vs. 158 grain for the .38 +P

I haven't chrongraphed out of the 2" Kimber K6 yet, but I expect close to the same.
FWIW, the recoil of the Kimber (with the new hogue rubber grips) and its heavier weight feels similar to the lighter LCRX with hogue rubber grips.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but I know there are people out there who don't shoot much .357 out of their lightweight snubbies, and then there are people who only own the .38 special versions and wonder if the cost and weight are worth the amount of .357 they might ever shoot after setting off a few hot rounds with the wrong grips!LOL

Everything is a balance or compromise, and I prefer to carry the lighter weight LCRX around the ranch all day instead of lugging the Ruger Speed six or even the Kimber K6. Those ounces add up over the day.
 
...I know there are people out there who don't shoot much .357 out of their lightweight snubbies...
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I don't shoot any .357 out of my .357 snubbie. No need. I handload the FBI load and am presently getting 940fps out of my 2.5" snubbie with my 158-160gr cast hollowpoints with my .38 Special +P loads. Awesome expansion and controllability make me a happy camper.

Don
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The most obnoxious recoiling gun I have EVER fired was a S&W Scandium alloy 357. So you want to fire 38 +P+ out of a J frame? Yeah.. good luck with that. You had better have a good hand filling grip just for starters.
 
There's no free lunch. If you want to carry a light weight short barrel gun, then you give up the performance that makes the .357 Magnum a magnum.

If you want full performance from the .357 you must accept you only get if from a longer barreled heavier gun.

The original .357 load delivered over 1500fps from a slightly over 8" barrel. It is ...stout.

Loads near that level work fine from an N frame, but not so well from a K frame, and its barking stupid to shoot them from anything smaller.

I'm not particularly impressed by a handful of fps, 25-50fps difference is insignificant to me. 100fps is something, but not a lot. A couple hundred+ and you've got something.
 
44 AMP said:
Loads near that level work fine from an N frame, but not so well from a K frame, and its barking stupid to shoot them from anything smaller.
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Well, then I guess I'm barking stupid. And happy to stay that way 'cause full-house 357's definitely have a lot more wallop out of my 2" than even 38 +P.
38+P loses just as much velocity going from 4" to 2" as a 357. Comparing the two out of 2" guns gives just as much relative difference as comparing both out of 4" guns.
 
Quite a few years ago - I came to the conclusion that higher velocity only gives you one thing.
Increased range.

Other than that - yeah, there's the higher "energy" thing - but - now a whole lot of people that know about that sort of thing put much stock in "energy" figures.

100 or 200 or even a bit more - extra fps (IMHO) won't make a whole lot of difference.

If you can't get it done with 850 fps, then 950 or even 1050 fps - probably won't make any difference.

I set a minimum - in terms of fps - that I look for in a load & I've found plenty of offerings out there that meet it easily.
 
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Velocity loss:
158 grain Buffalobore .38 +P
1 7/8 LCR=1027 4" Security six=1177 fps
180 grain BB .357
1 7/8 LCR- 1250 4" Ruger SS = 1403

But then 625 foot lbs out of a 1 7/8 snubbie is nothing to sneeze at either
Hotter than the average .357 factory load out of a 4" barrel so you can make up some difference by choosing the right loads. Everything is a compromise for what you need.
 
If you can't get it done with 850 fps, then 950 or even 1050 fps - probably won't make any difference.
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Probably not, if you're only talking about defensive shooting (people). But 1450 or 1650fps does make a difference when shooting other things. Seems to make a bit of a difference when shooting people, too...:rolleyes:


Hotter than the average .357 factory load...
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this is my big issue with current "average" factory loads. They are less than they once were. You have to find "hotter than average" to get close to what the original .357 loadings were. Because those loads can be too hot for smaller guns. Smaller guns just are not as strong as the N frame the .357 Mag was made for. I'm not talking blow up strength, I mean handling a working pressure.

I have personal experience where heavy loads (still under published max at the time) worked normally in an N frame (and, a Desert Eagle) but stuck cases in a K frame requiring them to be driven out of the cylinder. And, while I haven't personally shot any of those from a J frame size gun I am confident the results would be similar. Cases stuck in the chambers, unable to be removed by hand.

No one is saying shooting .357 from a snub nose is something to sneer at, it is always more than .38SPL. But its a long way from what I consider actual magnum performance.

There is an additional factor to consider shooting factory .357s from snub guns. They are vicious little beasts and give the hand quite a pounding, worse even than big bore magnums from big pistols.

Too much shooting of magnums in small guns can do injury! It takes more shooting than most people will do, but if you do too much, it can result in nerve damage in your hands and arms.
 
I am not worried in the least about any nerve damage from the "horrendous big-bore recoil" of my 357 snubby. It also shoots low-recoil 38 Special and the POI difference at self-defense ranges is negligible at best. So I practice with 38 Special. My snubby is a stainless 5-shot that is actually just a bit smaller than a J frame. I have absolutely no problem ejecting spent brass even with full-house loads.

As for that "heavy" 357 snubby recoil all I can say is "hogwash". My 4 inch .41 mag Tracker will put a dent in your forehead if you don't handle it right. Absolutely no comparison to my 357 snubby even when it is stoked with the most powerful loads I can find. Its felt recoil is even less than my 45ACP 1911.

I will, however concede that I have sensible full-size three-finger grips on my snubby, not those "dumb" little boot grips for just two fingers with the pinky hanging over.
 
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If you want to shoot .357 magnum from a snub revolver fine. No problem.

There are those of us who have no need to shoot those and go with the .38 Special and +P rounds. I'm not going to light off a magnum round inside the domicile. The heavy flash and recoil are too much for me and I do not want to be dazed by the shock wave.

I can get back on target faster with the .38 Specials if need be. My Taurus 65-2.5" barreled gun is one of the house guns and I can wear in around the house.

Winchester still makes the 158gr. LSWCHP and other +P loads that my revolver likes.

Whatever works for you folks, fine. No problem.
 
I don't use my 357 in my house either. It is only for carry when out and about. Inside my house, for burglaries, breaking and entering and such, I use something much more sensible for that ... a 380 semi-auto. No problem with over-penetration, more rounds available, no problem with blast, a spare magazine right next to the gun in case I need a quick reload.

But out and about I want something with some real 357 power. And it is backed up with another 380 with 16 rounds of Underwood Xtreme ammmo on board ... and two Safariland speed loaders. I happen to love shooting big-bore handguns, and have zero problem with blast or recoil, even from my ported magnums. So for me, my 357 snubby is a puddy cat even with the full-house Underwood ammo I use for carry. I used to have a Charter Arms Bulldog 44 Special ... lovely self-defense caliber, a real thumper, but too bulky. The recoil of my 357 snubby pales compared to that.
 
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Hmm, could not find any reviews for that one, only the gold dot and xtp.
Why, because I like to either chronograph results out of my own gun, or find unbiased reviews in real wold testing rather than rely on the 1500 fps that the manufacturer states. They don't tell you how they got that figure or what gun or length barrel.

That's why I post what I find, so people can compare to the advertised and make decisions on their own.
Underwood is usually Ok about their velocities but these sound a little inflated. The review on the gold dots the box stated 1500 fps, but the tester got 1150, so that is a huge difference.

Have you done any tests on these yourself?
 
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HighValleyRanch said:
Hmm, could not find any reviews for that one, only the gold dot and xtp.
Why, because I like to either chronograph results out of my own gun, or find unbiased reviews in real wold testing rather than rely on the 1500 fps that the manufacturer states. They don't tell you how they got that figure or what gun or length barrel.

That's why I post what I find, so people can compare to the advertised and make decisions on their own.
Underwood is usually Ok about their velocities but these sound a little inflated. The review on the gold dots the box stated 1500 fps, but the tester got 1150, so that is a huge difference.

Have you done any tests on these yourself?
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No, I haven't. I am sure the ammo I have will get the job done.
 
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