9mm instead of 5.56 for HD

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Mulebuk Mojo said:
I handroll my own buckshot loads that hit like a sledge hammer and yet as easy to shoot as my pocket 9mm.
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This would seem to defy the laws of physics. If something is easy to shoot, I.E. less recoil, then it should also have less effect on target. Of course then again some very small 9mms can have quite a bit of recoil depending on the load.


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Good observation there.

My load may not take down a Grizz but I have little doubt it is not effective. The Big difference is I run a 12-15 pellet load, that means with every pull of the trigger I have that many chances to stop the threat. And it only takes one hit in the right place.

I only wish I could carry and conceal it. My pocket 9mm is solely a 'get off me affair' as I can't shoot worth a crap. At 30 feet (note feet not yards I get a 6-9 inch spread)

When 'ole buck-a-roo lands you gonna know it. And I use steel slingshot ammo that doesn't deform like lead does.

lead-free.png


This post has been edited by the staff to remove off-topic comments.
 
Mulebuk Mojo said:
Good observation there. However let us not get to wrap up in the science as we have all discovered by now with the voodoo injections masquerading as vaccines.
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I don’t eschew science entirely because of the failures of some epidemiologists. Not all fields of science are the same. Newtonian physics is fairly well understood.

My point was simply there is no free lunch when it comes to ballistic effect on target. If you want a projectile capable of stopping a person you’re going to have deal with some recoil. These days there are a number of manufacturers making low recoil buckshot for those that can’t roll their own. If my 5’ wife can handle it, most people can. There are still ways in which I might prefer an AR, but a shotgun is certainly effective.


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I roll my own because there are no factory made loads I can handle. I got the math down to a science for myself. I know what pound force and recoil impulse I can tolerate. And even in my prime I could never handle factory buckshot.

You're way off about the free lunch, if I was a better shot I would shoot .223/5.56 there's hardly any recoil and those rounds will take down anything if you are a marksman's and most aren't.
Most who shoot it is princely because it has low recoil.

The key is just speed, think Bruce Lee at a 125 pounds soaking wet.
 
Mulebuk Mojo said:
I roll my own because there are no factory made loads I can handle. I got the math down to a science for myself. I know what pound force and recoil impulse I can tolerate. And even in my prime I could never handle factory buckshot.

You're way off about the free lunch, if I was a better shot I would shoot .223/5.56 there's hardly any recoil and those rounds will take down anything if you are a marksman's and most aren't.
Most who shoot it is princely because it has low recoil.

The key is just speed, think Bruce Lee at a 125 pounds soaking wet.
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I have both full size rifles and SBRs in 5.56. There is still recoil. Is it a lot? What is a lot? Is it the same as my 03-A3 in 30-06? Not at all, but there is still recoil and concussion there that a person will notice. You still need to have technique to control it and shoot it well.


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Yeah, good luck with your technique. I'm not a Clint Smith or James Yeager graduate. :)

I'm simply gonna let 'ole buck-a-roo take face off.
 
Mulebuk Mojo said:
Yeah, good luck with your technique. I'm not a Clint Smith or James Yeager graduate. :)

I'm simply gonna let 'ole buk-a-roo take face off.
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Technique can be learned for rifles or shotguns. Becoming more effective with a firearm is a good thing both in terms of stopping a threat and reducing collateral damage to other persons and property. Professional users of firearms train for a reason.


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I have no issue with someone using a shotgun for home defense. I also have no issue with someone using an AR15 or a 9mm in either pistol or carbine form. I think all of them can be effective and all of us have to evaluate what works for our own needs. These needs vary by our own physical limitations, experience, and layouts of our homes. I’ve put quite a bit of thought into what I do and why. As for my age, I’m not as young as I once was.

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In a defensive encounter I'm not so sure you will be concern about hearing loss.
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sound pressure can do funky things to a human being, especially at the onset of exposure. Its not always about the potential for measurable hearing loss. I will gladly exchange some loss of hearing to dominate a deadly threat but at the same time, there is some wisdom in the idea of mitigating negative forces to the degree you can reasonably achieve. Those mitigations should probably be thought out and put into place well before the unwelcomed condition ( danger) has manifested.

So essentially, its not really as easy as simply suggesting that a person may not be concerned about hearing loss. There are larger concepts involved
 
Mulebuk Mojo said:
Lol ! ___ like rehab or religion, the last bastion of a scoundrel

Who knew .. :)
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I say it because you’ve been a member for three days and may be unaware. Yes the moderators remove comments that become personal. The goal here is to avoid making it personal. If you would like to discuss with me personally there are private messages that can be sent. This keeps the topic threads clear of unnecessary distraction.


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Thinking ahead on these matters is a good thing. My hearing is damaged from close quarter firing of 5.56, 7.62, 7.62 x 39, 9mm, .45 ACP and 12 Ga. I “ feel “ 5.56 and .45ACP in my bones in a confined area. 7.62 out of a short barrel can jar the teeth as well. For some reason, the 9mm and 7.62 x 39 don’t jar me as much. In the heat of the moment you may not notice it but sooner or later you will. Short barrel 7.62’s knock me for a loop. I am betting a .357 would too. I am not too far off from hearing aids as it is.

As far as HD, I am very fond of a simple and I hope soon the be available again option: Remington 870 Express Youth Model with both slugs and buck shot. They are handy and can be used by almost everyone.
 
One of the biggest dis-services done by movies, TV and video games is "teaching" people the wrong things about the sound of gunfire, and especially in enclosed spaces.

All kinds of weapons, piatols, shotguns, rifles, and up through grenades and other explosives are fired inside rooms, hallways, CARS! and other enclosed spaces and then right afterwards the ACTORS (none of whom is ever wearing hearing protection) have conversations in normal tones of voice, or sometimes even whisper, and are perfectly understood. NO ONE goes deaf (even temporarily) which is not what happens in the real world. Not even close.

Suppressors would seem an obvious solution, but they're costly, not legal everywhere, and if you find a prosecutor who won't claim the reason you have a "silencer" on your gun is so you can commit murder and get away with it, then you've found a rare individual in that office.

Also, putting on muffs or earplugs is likewise used as "evidence" of premeditation, and that argument is used to negate "self defense" all too often in court.

remember that no matter how it is officially described, the real function of a jury is to decide which side has the better liar in court.....
 
44 AMP said:
Also, putting on muffs or earplugs is likewise used as "evidence" of premeditation, and that argument is used to negate "self defense" all too often in court.
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Good point 44, never looked at that but you are spot on. A lot people are in prison for what they thought was justified use of deadly force and some were right.

There is a sad case just a few years ago out of Maine. Shot the guy 4x with a .380 to 'stop the threat'. The prosecutor was able to paint it that he used aggressive force that was unnecessary and his overworked underpaid and simply don't care public defender never picked up on it that what he did was in fact the correct procedure.


When he was sentence the Judge told him I hate to do this, but I have no choice, he knew what the prosecutor had done.

72 years old, whole life on the straight and narrow, worked, retired paid his tax's, played the game by all the rules etc.
25 years to life, a dead man walking.
 
44 AMP said:
Suppressors would seem an obvious solution, but they're costly, not legal everywhere, and if you find a prosecutor who won't claim the reason you have a "silencer" on your gun is so you can commit murder and get away with it, then you've found a rare individual in that office.

Also, putting on muffs or earplugs is likewise used as "evidence" of premeditation, and that argument is used to negate "self defense" all too often in court.
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These are points I’ve heard brought up before, but do you have specific examples we can use as references of this happening?


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Also, putting on muffs or earplugs is likewise used as "evidence" of premeditation, and that argument is used to negate "self defense" all too often in court.
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Please site one case where an otherwise lawful use of force was deemed unlawful because someone used earmuffs or earplugs.

someone might say that having a gun (at all) is premeditated or that taking self defense classes is premeditated. Lots of things can be said to be "premeditated". At what point is a supposed premeditation considered to be criminal?
 
FireForged said:
At what point is a supposed premeditation considered to be criminal?
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Whenever a clever prosecutor deems it is and can convince the 12 dummies on the jury it is, hand picked because they are dummies.

This is all political theater, they can't touch the second amendment so let's make it difficult to own a gun.

When I took my CCW class a few years back they brought a lawyer in who put the fear of God into us by saying everything you think is right and lawful goes out the window in a court of law. He went on to say if you ever have to use your gun it will most likely be the worst day of your life.

If you don't end up in prison the system will allow the relatives to sue you for everything you own, thereby dissuading others owning a gun.


Do you see how this all works.
 
The question here though isn’t as vague as self defense in general but the addition of hearing protection crossing the line from no conviction to conviction. I think many here understand that the legal implications of using a firearm for self defense are broad and uncomfortable, but if the argument is that every DA out there is out to pin all gun owners against the wall, then it should be possible to come up with an example for this particular case of hearing protection.

I’d add that some states have added civil suit protection for people found innocent of criminal charges, as in those lawsuits can’t be brought forward. This is in no way all states and likely has its limitations so knowing your state laws is important, but it can at least help to some extent. There is also “concealed carry insurance”, which offers legal coverage up to a certain amount under an insurance policy for civil suit protection. This has to be purchased by the gun owner, but some like the idea.


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Provided you have the money. And I for one am not buying into the fear mongering of getting insurance.
Some of the biggest r ats are in the so called gun community, selling fear, bad training and advice along with clever innuendoes.

I'm claiming physically feeble
 
I can understand someone not wanting the insurance. It does seem a bit contradictory to me though to call it fear mongering when your previous post seems to convey a very bleak prospect with the odds deliberately stacked against you. That post itself would seem to suggest the fear isn’t entirely unfounded.


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