45 recommendations p!ease

[TunnelRat]

I loaded up my 20 gauge Mossberg, bought a 6 rounds sticky strip to stick it on the side to put more ammo and put in my room. After talking about bullet penetration, shotgun seems to be a good idea. I have 18" barrel and pistol grip.

One important thing. I change my bedroom door to solid door and I have dead bolt on the door and lock the door when we go to sleep. This will definitely delay the entry of intrudors from coming in and give me time to get guns ready. Something you guys might want to think about. I don't load the chamber of the shot gun, it's easy to rack it.

No, I don't want AR15, too dangerous for home defense. Talk about wall penetrations. All the talks about banning AR15, I am still debating whether to buy one just for a piece of history. If I do, I likely won't buy ammo for it. It's just for collection.

What is wing shooting?

Generally speaking a shotgun will penetrate as much as an AR15 if you’re using buckshot (I wouldn’t recommend bird shot for home defense personally). In fact the fast and light bullets of 223 and 5.56 ammunition tend to tumble and fragment more than shotgun pellets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tomrkba]

To swing things back around. How is the 2.0 Smith in .45 guise? I never cared for the 1.0 M&Ps and I have yet to actually shoot a 2.0 or any kind but I really like the improvements they have made and how they feel.

The M&P 45 M2.0 is great EXCEPT for the grip texture. The texture makes it awful to carry unless modified.

 

[Alan0354]

Generally speaking a shotgun will penetrate as much as an AR15 if you’re using buckshot (I wouldn’t recommend bird shot for home defense personally). In fact the fast and light bullets of 223 and 5.56 ammunition tend to tumble and fragment more than shotgun pellets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bird shot is plenty strong already. It's a different dimension of stopping power compare to handguns. Idea is it's easier to hit the target as it spreads out.

 

[TunnelRat]

You’re certainly entitled to that opinion. The trainers I’ve had that are/were military and law enforcement would disagree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Alan0354]

I thought about 12 gauge, but it's just too strong. I don't know whether I can handle with a pistol grip. After shooting even a 20 gauge, I shot a 223 rifle, it's like a pea shooter. I actually frost up a little after I shot the first round, did it miss fired?!!

Anyone got a bruised shoulder after shooting skits with a shotgun? Me and my wife did. It's that scary strong.

 

[jr24]

Wing shooting is just another way to describe bird hunting, usually upland game (pheasant, grouse, probably quail) or at least around here.

12 gauge bruising? Sure, I've had that happen with 3 1/2" magnum sabot slugs and a rifled barrel.

But bird or buck shot? Nah, shot plenty and have done days and days of skeet without issue.

Probably you weren't holding the butt stock tight enough into the pocket of your shoulder and the recoil was slapping you with the butt instead of absorbing it.

Oh yeah, AR15 bullets, especially soft point tend to fragment and don't penetrate as much as some people think, and shotguns, even bird shot, don't spread all that much at "in home" distances.

 

[cslinger]

. Oh yeah, AR15 bullets, especially soft point tend to fragment and don't penetrate as much as some people think, and shotguns, even bird shot, don't spread all that much at "in home" distances.

Just keep in mind anything applicable for self defense is still likely gonna penetrate at least one full wall if not more, but I agree light weight .223 is probably the best in terms of capability vs over penetration and should break up slow down pretty quick.

That said 12 gauge 00 buck, while understanding its limitations (gun and ammo), is a pretty proven fight stopper in the real world, and the small bit of PD experience and info I have had access to backs that up.

Shotgun spread is minimal at most HD distances. Like fist sized minimal. You DO have to aim.

My “theory” on why buckshot is so devastating even in some cases more so then rifles rounds is the fact that the body is being hit with multiple instant wound paths vs dealing with a single would path and the multiple wound tracks are more likely to overwhelm a target physically and psychologically. I mean it’s basically like a burst from a VZ61 with 9 hits.

 

[cslinger]

As far as birdshot goes we had dude shot in the head through a side glass window of a car at close range. Dude wasn’t happy and it left a Mark but the glass probably did as much or more damage and he lived. That is pretty much what turned me completely away from bird shot for any self defense.

Now that said, I am not saying a blast of Walmart low brass at HD distances is t likely to dissuade an attacker. I mean even if I lived through the hit I probably be thinking my bad WRONG HOUSE!!!

 

[TunnelRat]

Just keep in mind anything applicable for self defense is still likely gonna penetrate at least one full wall if not more, but I agree light weight .223 is probably the best in terms of capability vs over penetration and should break up slow down pretty quick.

That said 12 gauge 00 buck, while understanding its limitations (gun and ammo), is a pretty proven fight stopper in the real world, and the small bit of PD experience and info I have had access to backs that up.

Shotgun spread is minimal at most HD distances. Like fist sized minimal. You DO have to aim.

Agreed on all counts.

I’ve mentioned this in a few threads now. If the cartridge has the capability to inflict a killing wound against a human it is likely capable of penetrating through the walls, interior and otherwise, of most homes that are mostly framing and paneling.

Absolutely on the aiming. If you’re using flight control buckshot it’s a very tight pattern. Even standard buckshot out of a cylinder bore is still tighter than many people credit.

Buckshot definitely has its applications. 223 against laminated auto glass is not impressive. Buckshot makes relatively quick work of automobiles in terms of glass and standard body panels, and certainly slugs do as well.

One caution I will give about shotguns is there’s a tendency to think of them as laymen weapons. In the full day shotgun course I took the lesson I walked away from is that’s a fallacy. There is something to be said about having a manual operation versus gas operated, but that means it’s also all on you. If you short stroke the shotgun, if you screw up a reload, that’s your fault and you deal with the consequences. It’s a physical weapon. I saw more malfunctions in that one day than I did in multi-day carbine courses. Whether it was people buying cheap shells or user induced malfunctions the malfunctions happened and took some skill to clear. A good number of failures to extract were seen (and these were all Mossbergs with dual extractors).

The instructor I had, who was a training officer at his department and an adjunct instructor at SIG Sauer Academy, mentioned that his department has gone away from shotguns in favor of carbines to a large extent. AR-15s are just very easy to use for most officers. This instructor was still a big fan of shotguns, but the usage has certainly swung more to carbines.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Alan0354]

One thing for sure, pump shotgun is not the most reliable depends on how you rack the gun. I had problems with the Remington 870, I exchanged 3 of them. Two had problem feeding, one blew the choke, the whole front of the barrel swelled a little. I don't know why 870 was regarding so highly. The part that lift the shell up to be loaded into the chamber is very weak and fail to lift the shell high enough and thereby jammed.

Mossberg was supposed to be cheap, but the design is better as long as you get the double pump rails(one on each side, don't get the single rail). I don't have problem so far.

I understand bird shot don't go through auto glass well or walls, but to me, that's the point. In home defense, I won't have a glass between me and the intruder, it is going to be direct shot. I know I have to aim, but still from 18" barrel, it's going to be a fist size when hitting anyone. It's better than a small hole.

I don't know about the stopping power, I shot a Ruger .223, that was weak. It's not even loud. I might not hold the shotgun in perfect position, but I did not leaving gap between me and the butt. Also the fact I have no issue shooting the .223. That was a pea shooter. I just cannot imagine even the 20 gauge with such a strong recoil, have no stopping power. I never shot 44magnum, I shot plenty of 357 magnum, it never bother me, I shot small guns and all, nothing bother me. The shot gun is something else. I just cannot imagine they lack stopping power. Remember, I am not talking about PD and SWAT work that they have to go through glass and barrier. I am talking about home defense face to face.

 

[TunnelRat]

A small hole as a result of a shot that penetrates deep enough to deliver a fatal wound (or at least a disabling wound) against someone you shot because you are convinced that person means you grave harm is better than a large but shallow hole that leaves that person able to inflict harm upon you. Shotguns do have power, when loaded appropriately.

It's odd to me that in the same thread you're saying a .223 is a pea shooter, but you also mention it being very likely to overpenetrate.

 

[Alan0354]

I am just saying my experience of shooting the 223.

I want to stop the intruder, I don't necessary want to kill them. If I can stop them without killing them, that would be the best. I never kill anyone, but I sure hope people think over this first. Can you live with taking a person's life? I am not talking about jokingly, really, are you prepare to take a person's life? There is no return. I would much rather having solid door, dead bolt lock to slow them down. If I have to, I would shoot to stop them. I don't want to accidentally having a stray bullet goes through the wall killing someone next door.

I hate to bring the word "macho' again. It's so easy to say I'll blow his head off. But please ask yourself, don't have to tell others, can you comfortably take a person's life and able to sleep? Yes, this sounds like a very chicken thing to say. But this is real life. You pull the trigger, you can never take it back. This is not movie.

That's a big part of the reason I quit shooting over 30 years ago. I was so into it, we went twice a week for years shooting the whole afternoon and close the range. I did it all. I can't answer the question, I don't know whether I can sleep well if I kill someone. I might keep asking myself whether that's the absolute only option, what if....what if......

That's why I am still practice striking on heavy bags, I have a 70lbs and a 100lbs heavy bags that I practice punching and kicking twice a week, I practice bare knuckle punching 4 X 6 wood pole that support the garabe and kick the pole. I still do weight lifting, doing 20 pushup with legs on the chair wearing 60lbs of weights on my chest to do it. I am starting to practice a little on knife fighting. Shooting is my very final option.

Some people can kill another person and laugh later. Question is are you one of those? Look at all the PTSD of soldiers coming back from the battle field in both world wars and through out the history.

 

[TunnelRat]

If you don't want to kill a person, don't shoot them. Shooting to wound is a fallacy. If you've made the decision to shoot someone you do so with the knowledge that person might die. Even a leg shot can be lethal if you hit the femoral artery. Discharging a firearm at another individual is a very serious act. If you're looking for a less than lethal option those are available.

I shoot to stop the threat. I would do so if I believe that person is capable of and intending to inflict imminent death or serious bodily injury on myself or another person. There are a number of examples of assailants being shot and still going on to harm and kill their original targets. Pain compliance is iffy at best and again there are far better options for pain compliance as opposed to shooting someone.

I very much value human life. I will be very happy to never use my firearm in a defensive situation. Nothing I have said has remotely indicated I want to "blow someone's head off", that I think this is a movie, or that I would laugh later. You are crossing into strawman territory now and frankly verging on insulting me as a person.

I train because I take this as seriously as I do. This has included days of force on force scenario based training using UTM pistols. The goal in all of those is to avoid a shooting if possible. I think you would benefit from some additional training, similar to what you had for martial arts. In the meantime I personally would appreciate it if you didn't make summary judgements about the intentions of members of this forum (or at least don't associate them with attitudes that they themselves aren't suggesting).

 

[Alan0354]

I did not say to you, this is a very general comment. I don't know you, there's no reason I would point you out. I apologize if you think that. I was not.

I said that because I was saying all those before. It's just a general comment for people to stop and think.

As I said, I was out of this for 30 years, I am a Chinese, if it's not because of Chinese being attacked since the Covid 19, I won't even think about guns and buying guns. People blame anyone that looks Asian. Also the burning and looting. These days, you never know, you can be at home and people invade your home. I have no choice but to pick up a gun and start planning on defensive moves.

 

[jr24]

One caution I will give about shotguns is there’s a tendency to think of them as laymen weapons. In the full day shotgun course I took the lesson I walked away from is that’s a fallacy. There is something to be said about having a manual operation versus gas operated, but that means it’s also all on you. If you short stroke the shotgun, if you screw up a reload, that’s your fault and you deal with the consequences

Agree. I've bird hunted my whole life, shot skeet and trap and fancied myself a fair hand with a scattergun. Especially my well used 870.

Until I tried 3 gun. Then I learned all the ways I needed to improve with pretty much every aspect of shotgunning.

And that's not even real training.

Personally I feel more comfortable reaching for an AR in a SD scenario. Yes penetration is still a significant concern, as are misses out of the home and down range, but between action, capacity, recoil and such it works better for me.

My wife prefers a shotgun, so we keep both handy.