45 Colt versus 44 Magnum

Fourdogs:
Sometimes numbers can be misleading. For instance I shot a few Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+ 1425fps/1533 ft.lbs from my 4 3/4" FA at a large stainless steel plate that was maybe 3/16 thick from about 10 yards. Those are some serious rounds. When one of those lit off I got moved back about a step. They put a serious dent in that plate. Nothing remained but splatter.

Next up was my 7 1/2" FA 454 with a Colt cylinder. It was ported ( later had the barrel cut down to 5 1/2" ) so I figured I was losing some velocity which made it a fairly even match with my 44 barrel. I made up some 360gr wheel weight boolits with 16 grains of 4227 which most of you know is a pretty tame load. The gun hardly moved because of the ports, but the dents in the plate were huge, much deeper and wider than the 44.

I'm guessing the BB was moving so fast it disintrigrated which it did. The 360's were moving maybe 1100 ( just a guess ) but they had more authority and actually blew the plate off the stand whereas the BB didn't move the plate at all. Wish I still had that plate. It would be instructive to post a pic.

This wasn't very scientific but it was enough to finally give the nod to the 454 and I sold the 44.
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Fourdogs, that is a pretty nifty little test. However, I doubt that the 44 load was traveling at rated velocity from your 4.75 inch barrel. A near 3 inch difference between both guns is a huge difference in velocity and give equal barrel lengths the results might have been closer. However, the 454 average loads are equal to the BB44 load(which is the max 44 mag load) and with the 454 you can go to levels the 44 will never attain. Also, interesting that the BB bullet disintegrated. I would have expected more toughness out of it.
 
seeker, they have probably not offered them because there is comparatively little to gain. The 44 is already a high performance, high pressure round. The 45 has more potential gains from such a conversion, and is the only way to get that kind of performance out of the round.
 
There Are 5 shot .44s...

Freedom Arms has made them for years. Several custom builders will bud them if asked, but as the previous poster speculated, I would also think there is less gain to be made with a .44 due to its already high pressure.

Adding more pressure beyond a certain point gains smaller increases in velocity. For small gains in velocity, you are moving closer and closer to the danger point in pressure.

JW
 
This is an interesting thread comparing 44/45. They usually are. This thread though has a lot of level headed people who are friendly and don't take it personally. Kudos to everyone.

Debating the differences on different levels is not only educational but fun. The recent lengthy post flyboy made is spot on imo. Very well written and conveyed, and who can argue with Linebaugh ? Yes there can be rather large differences between calibers depending what type of gun you have and what type of ammunition. I personally like loading for the 45. You really have to if you want performance. Factory 44 already comes with that.

Stellite is right too. In my crude experiment the BB wasn't going anywhere near it's published V in my 4 3/4" barrel but they disintegrated nevertheless. I would have expected more toughness as well. Another reason to cast so you have complete ( more ) control with respect to how your boolits will perform. btw, I don't load for high pressure even in my 454. I like heavy and relatively slow ~ 1000/1200.
 
A buddy of mine is loading the new punch bullets for his 454, which apparently are so hard and strong that there is no deformation at all, since they are machined. They are expensive though at $2 for just the bullet. :eek:
 
I researched punch bullets some time ago. I think they're made out of brass. No problem sealing brass in a bore if sized right. I shot brass in my 50BMG but it was hell to clean and hard on the bore so I switched to pure copper. In my 454 I'll stick with lead.
 
From my experience brass loading in 50's isn't so much velocity but bore roughness. Lead is fairly easy to remove from a bore. Copper a little more difficult. Brass is imo exponentially more difficult. Needless to say cleaning a 5 1/2" barrel is easier than cleaning a 30"

Every barrel is a law unto itself. I would wager punch bullets wouldn't load up that much simply because not that many bullets would probably be shot. With a 50 I shot lots of rounds and found that I needed to clean every 10 to 15 rounds to maintain accuracy which was around 6" at 1000 yards/ Still I believe brass is very difficult to remove from a bore.
 
Adding more pressure beyond a certain point gains smaller increases in velocity. For small gains in velocity, you are moving closer and closer to the danger point in pressure.
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Just to expand a little, peak pressure doesn't always equate to higher velocity. you can blow either gun to smithereens using bullseye and never get near the velocity you can with a slower burning powder. peak velocity is acheived with the total amount of pressure under the curve, to have a good curve for these calibers requires large quanitys of slower burning powders. The big Colts case capacity gives it an advantage when not restrained by gun design.
 
It doesn't far exceed them with slow powders, stellite; and slow powders are what pushes the 325+ slugs fastest, with the most forgiving and predictable pressure curve. Right there is where case capacity really begins to matter.
 
Sarge is spot on imo. The 45 case may be at the bottom of the big bores but there's enough volume to drive some pretty heavy bullets to some pretty impressive speeds. It's possible to run out of room with slower powders in a 45 especially with deep seated bullets. I've read Dick Casull filled cases ( Not sure 45 or 454 or what bullet ) with Bullseye trying to blow up some of his guns and he couldn't do it.
 
I tried a 45 colt for hunting, (Ruger.) Fine firearm and very accurate, but I don't reload and the only factor hunting loads were painful to shoot. I just wanted a hardcast going about 1200-1300 fps, perfect for my whitetall hunting up close. I went with a 44mag and never looked back. I owned several and my current hunting load is Winchester White box 240 JSP. This load is very accurate and does everything I need it to. I was hunting with Hornady flex tip before that.
 
Case capacity far exceeds max allowable loads in both calibers so that is a moot point.
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there's more to case capacity than how much powder will fit, volume has a lot to do with the pressure curve.
you take a nice safe load and then seat the bullet much deeper and see what happens.
 
Mavracer, I understand your point. I guess my point is that I have seen no one utilize that in the past in any way that proves anything. Show me how these advantages physically manifest themselves in real world performance numbers. Show me how these advantages have allowed you to create loads that far exceed the ability of the 44 magnum? I have yet to see that anywhere listed in 5 pages of discussion. The highest energy safe FACTORY load for the 44 mag has already been shown to be 1649 ft-lbs of energy. There is not one FACTORY magnum level 45lc load that even comes close. There are several other factory 44 loads in the 1400 ft-lb range. Show me a SAFE factory or handloaded load for the 45 lc that FAR exceeds these 44 mag numbers so that we can see how this case capacity is such an advantage?

I will end my point with this. The advantages the 44 mag has over the 45lc FAR outweigh any disadvantages. The availability of factory loaded magnum ammo at almost any sporting goods store should be enough of an advantage. The availability of better loaded magnum level ammo to do anything you need to is another advantage. The availability of so many more handguns in 44 magnum is another biggie. Cost of all of the above is another advantage.

In the end if I want to exceed the performance of a 44 mag, I would go to a 454 or bigger.
 
Dirty Harry vs Rooster Cogburn, what a fight, bigger hole, lower pressure, or a screaming 200 fps and 75 ftlb more energy.

Match a heavyweight against a light heavyweight,who's going to win most of the time ?

I like to root for the under dog too BUT I'll bet my money on Rooster!
 
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