44 Magnum and approaching hostile human at 50 yards.

Caliber and Barrel Length of the DE?

Firepower!, The M4 and Krinkov are certainly excellent weapons to keep at hand. But I think at 100 meters or more, your Ruger .44 Magnum probably is a comparable or possibly better weapon, especially with the scope. And more especially if you get to practice with it at long range.

If you have posted about having a Desert Eagle, I have missed it. There have been Desert Eagles with a number of different barrel lengths and calibers. If you have a particular combination in mind, post it and we can do some research.

I have a farm, much smaller than yours, but also remote and wooded and the farmhouse is located well into the woods, back off the highway. I have been thinking about the possibility of having a carload of bad guys show up at my door sometime, and have been thinking that an AK would serve very well in the defensive role, just like your Krinkov and M4. Since there are no moutains where our farm is, it will all be short range stuff, where rapid fire and some ability to penetrate cover will likely be important. When I'm there, I do generally wear a .44 Magnum revolver, though. They are useful at short distances, too!
 
Yes that is ruger SRH scoped with bushnell in 44 mag.

Idown own a DE but I am considering one since it will resolve the cap issue by carrying extra mags.

In your TX ranch situation I would go russian AK with 75 drum mag. Then bring on two car loads of trouble. No problem.
 
Desert Eagle over Ruger

Firepower!, According to the last Lyman Pistol and Revolver reloading manual, the Desert Eagle in .50 Action Express fires a 325 grain bullet at over 1400 feet per second, where the .44 Magnum, assuming you have a 240 grain bullet, is only going about 1200+ fps. It looks like there is around 200 fps difference, which would be somewhat significant with equal weight bullets. Since the .50AE is considerably heavier, it has a substantial edge over a commercial load .44 Magnum.

Since you are not able to reload, and since even .44 Magnum does not appear plentiful, you would really want to insure you have a good supply of .50 AE ammunition.

I don't have any personal experience with a Desert Eagle of that size and type, but they made them in .44 Magnum at one time. I don't think you would gain anything except the ability to load magazines with a .44 Mag DE, though.

If you have a choice in weapons, have you thought about a Springfield Armory SOCOM in .308 Win.? You would have a match to your M4 and Krinkov, and with a scope, you could reach out as far as the Ruger, with a far more potent and accurate weapon than unfriendlies armed with anything shooting the 7.62x39 round, like an AK or SKS.
 
Hi
I dont have access to any SA stuff. Do have 308s in bunch of G3s, hk91s and a hk 770.

DE is about 6'' in barrel length whereas SRH is 7.5''. So the SRH has 1.5 '' advantage and the fact its a wheelgun and none of the energy escapes in reload.
 
I still think in practical terms the krink is a better option, The idea of trying to get a sight picture in a scoped hand gun while exicted or running is difficult, maybe find a Mp5 if you wish for lighter, but the SRH just seems to be a hunting gun, not a self defense gun, particularly in a position where the opposition is not just a street mugger, but a paramilitary type.


I envy you the opportunity to have real Krinks, but do not envy you the fact you really NEED a real krink,
 
So the SRH has 1.5 '' advantage and the fact its a wheelgun and none of the energy escapes in reload.
Click to expand...
Revolver barrels & autopistol barrels are measured differently.

Revolver barrels are measured from the forcing cone (in front of the cylinder) to the muzzle while autopistol barrels are measured from the breechface to the muzzle. That means that a 5" revolver has a longer overall barrel than a 5" autopistol. The bullet will actually travel about 5" in the revolver barrel before exiting the muzzle while it will travel 5" minus the length of the chamber in the autopistol before exiting the muzzle.

On the other hand, a revolver barrel vents gases between the cylinder and the barrel.

The result is usually that there isn't any significant difference between an autopistol and a revolver with similar quoted barrel lengths. The small length advantage of the revolver is lost in the venting between the cylinder & barrel.

The energy used in the self-loading process of a recoil-operated semi-auto does not detract from the muzzle velocity to any measurable degree. In effect it uses some of the energy that would otherwise be wasted in recoil. In a gas operated semi-auto like the DE, the gas pressure bled off will reduce the muzzle velocity slightly, but again, it's unlikely to be a measurable effect.

Also the difference in the barrel dimensions and smoothness will likely have a more pronounced effect on the muzzle velocity than an inch or two of barrel length, or the gas bleed off.

FINALLY, 40 or 50fps of velocity difference (what I would expect between the two guns) will not make any significant difference in lethality in my opinion.

The real differences in the two guns are shootability, ability to reload quickly and reliability--primarily the latter. I'd want to shoot the DE a good bit to establish a flawless track record before I relied on it in a pinch.
 
thanks for the detail analysis John.

Can anyone explain the measurement of the energy? I mean ft-lbs, what does it actually means?

44 retaining more energy than .223 at 200 yards makes is quite leathal. I got this info from remshoot. I used 55gr for .223 and 230 or 240 for .44.

Does any one have 44's ballistic comparision to 7.62x39?

I have only hollow point from three different makers: UMC, IMI, and Privi Partisan. Supply and variety of 44s and its bullets is very limited in Pakistan.
 
Last edited:
Personal preferances and ability

I have had a .44 magnum Desert Eagle since 1990. My gun is reliable, whe fed ammo it likes and used correctly. Full house loads only. Jacketed bullets only (because of the gas system), and you must make sure you do not put any pressure on the magazine base, or it is likely to jam. magazines hold 8 rounds. If you can handle the size of the grip (which is huge), the weight (4.25lbs empty, and feeling much heavier with 8 rnds of .44mag), a fairly heavy creepy trigger pull (not as good as most revolvers in SA mode), and the plain fixed (drift for windage only) sights that come as standard, it is a nice piece. What it really is, is a niche piece.

They are quite accurate, if you can get past the trigger pull and the sights. recoil is mild, about like a hot .45acp, partially because of the gas action, but mostly because of the weight of the gun.

I don't know what gun/barrel length was used for the data only giving 1200+fps for the 240gr .44 mag, but that speed is quite low. 1974 published data gives 1470fps for the 240gr jsp (winchester factory load), and I can tell you from personal experience that with a good strong gun and 6" or more barrel you can get speeds up to about 1600fps with a 240gr jacketed bullet. Those loads are HOT, but can be done safely in some guns with longer barrels.
 
ft-lbs is the scientific quantity that measures the potential of a projectile to do work (damage).

The emphasis is on 'potential' since there are various things that can cause a projectile to fail to live up to its potential. It's not always a good measure of lethality or effectiveness, particularly when comparing different calibers.

The 7.62x39 shoots a bullet weighing about 123 grains at approximately 2400fps. That gives about 1570ftlbs. The 7.62x39 is roughly equivalent to the 30-30 rifle cartridge although the 30-30 packs a little more punch since it can drive a 150gr bullet to 2400fps. You can find discussions of whether the 44mag is more or less powerful/effective than the 30-30 and the arguments on both sides should apply fairly well to the comparison between the 7.62x39 and the .44 mag.

Here's one.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61103

Personally once the ranges stretch to 25 yards and beyond, I'd be unhappy with a pistol knowing that my opponent was likely to be armed with a long gun.
 
John,
I understand that ft-lbs (feet-pounds) denotes a scientific quantity that represents potential damage. However, what is it measuring? In other words MPH is mile per hour, FPS is feet per second. Similarly, ft-lbs must also stand for something. If it was written as lbs/ft I would think its the amount of pressure a projectile exerts in terms of pounds at a foot of target area. That does not make sense since pressure would be at specific point of impact rather on entire ft sqd area, because from point of impact the pressure will immediatelly start to vary when we deviate from that point.

Thus, what is this measurement, and how is it measured?
 
1 ft-lb is the amount of work done by a one pound weight falling a distance of one foot or the amount of work required to raise a one pound weight one foot.

It is the measure of the kinetic energy (energy "contained" in a moving object) of a projectile. In other words, it's either the amount of work (the scientific definition of work) that the projectile can do or the amount of work it would take to stop it.

The formula is 1/2 times the mass of the projectile times the velocity of the projectile squared. When you hammer out all the conversions and constants, the formula is:

(weight x velocity x velocity) / 450436

Where weight is the weight of the bullet measured in grains and velocity is speed of the bullet measured in feet per second.

The kinetic energy of a projectile is used up in the following ways:

Deforming the projectile
Creating heat
Creating sound
Displacing/damaging target material
 
One thing that occurred to me, Firepower! is this:

Is that scoped SRH any easier to carry than one of the two rifles you pictured?

Do you have a shoulder holster for it? Because the rifles have slings, and while they are bigger & heavier, they are still going to be easier to carry, because you don't need to have a hand free.

I assume the DE is not scoped, so it might be easier to find a holster for it.

The DE is going to be easier & faster to shoot follow-up shots, since less of the recoil will get to you. There is also the fact that the DE has more capacity and will be quicker to reload. But the scoped SRH is going to be easier to hit with if you have time to aim.

So if you're going to carry either the DE or SRH, get a shoulder holster, so it really IS handier than a rifle. ;)
 
I have a DE 44 and consider it my handgun of choice if going out into the woods looking for game between 50 & 150 yards (scoped beyond 75 yards). It is the most accurate handgun I own.

As far as velocity/energy, I get about 50-100 fps more from the DE than from my S&W 6-1/2" 629 Classic (example - 300 grain Nosler JHP - 1000 fps vs 1060 fps).

However I got between 50-100 fps more from my 7-1/2" 629 PC Light Hunter than from the DE. (example - Hornady 200 grain XTP - 1350 fps vs 1290 fps).

Personally the velocity/energy is not that significant to my way of thinking. How quickly and how accurately can the firearm be deployed seems critical to me. I'd much rather have a DE in my hands while a few attackers come running down a hill side at 100 yards shooting their AK-47's. From a stable platform, I think the DE is excellent.

A long time ago I recall reading that it takes 300 ft-lbs of energy to kill a human (please no bashing, as I read this a long time ago in some gun magazine ... I have no idea of its merit.)
 
Last edited:
I understand that ft-lbs (feet-pounds) denotes a scientific quantity that represents potential damage. However, what is it measuring? In other words MPH is mile per hour, FPS is feet per second. Similarly, ft-lbs must also stand for something.
Click to expand...


So what is KE measuring that bears on stopping power?; actually, its just a number to hype. Shill gunwriters like to promote Kinetic Energy ( KE= Mass X Velocity X Velocity) as a measure of quality. However KE is not conserved in collisions. Momentum is conserved in collisions (ME = Mass X Velocity). But only a few gunwriters, like Hatcher, Taylor and Keith used momentum as a quality characteristic. I think Jeff Cooper did too.

Why KE is used so often is that a little increase in velocity greatly changes the KE number. After all velocity is squared. An increase of 10 fps increases KE by 100. It is relatively easy to increase velocity in a cartridge, and the little increase looks very substantial on paper. For momentum, a little increase in velocity does not change the momentum by much. Gun writers have to come up with ideas to sell products, and KE is an excellent way to make much ado out of nothing.


For handguns at least, which tend to be slow moving projectiles, I believe bullet diameter and bullet weight are excellent predictors of stopping performance.

Bullet technology has really improved, so bullets that expand reliably at all velocities really increase lethality.

As for the 44 Magnum. It pushes a heavy bullet, what I shoot is 240 grain, at velocities close to 1400 fps in factory loads. Based on my 50 yard shooting, the 44 Magnum has significant retained momentum and really hits my gong target hard. Much harder than a 38 Spl, 44 Spl, 45 ACP, or even a 45 LC. The 357 shoots very well and hits hard at 50 yards. So if you plan to engage something at that distance, a 44 Magnum will cause significant damage. I have shot my 44 Magnum lever action out to 175 yards, and I can say that a 240 gr bullet launched at 1750 fps, really hits the gong hard at 100 yards, and still wangs it good at 175 yards.

However, shooting offhand, I find fifty yards just at my extreme limit of engagement with a handgun. It is very difficult to hit a 12 inch gong, offhand, with a handgun. When I am doing well, I hit 5 out of 6, 4 out of six, with irons. And that is single action, taking my time, defocusing, and letting my brain pull the trigger as the sights move on target.

I have moved the target out to 75 yards, and offhand, hitting the thing 3 out of 6 is doing well.

I am not the best pistol shot in the world, but I do practice. A handgun is a near range weapon. I sometimes think of near range as spitting distance. Once you start getting past that distance, hit probability really decreases. In competitions I have missed 12” targets at seven yards. Embarrassing, but stress can really mess up your performance.

For targets around 50 yards, I would much rather be carrying a rifle. Having a number of times placed 17 shots into the 12 inch ten ring at 600yards, with irons, I have a lot more confidence that I can hit something with a rifle, even at long distances.
 
Gun writers have to come up with ideas to sell products, and KE is an excellent way to make much ado out of nothing.
Click to expand...
KE is a scientific quantity discovered and quantified centuries before there ever was a gun writer.
But only a few gunwriters, like Hatcher, Taylor and Keith used momentum as a quality characteristic.
Click to expand...
First of all neither KE nor momentum is a measure of "quality", they are both scientific quantities that measure specific aspects of moving objects, projectiles in our case.

Kinetic energy measures the potential of a moving object to do damage and momentum measures the tendency of a moving object to keep moving.

In general, the way to think about it is this: If you have two identical projectiles, the one with the higher kinetic energy will tend do more damage while the one with the higher momentum will tend to penetrate deeper.

The problem is that in the real world there are so many variables that you can't make those statements any more specific--that's why they both contain the words "tend to". For example, a fragile projectile with high momentum might not penetrate a tough medium at all and a small, sturdy projectile with high kinetic energy penetrating an elastic medium might do very little damage at all.

Both quantities are important in understanding how a projectile will behave, no scientist would say that one is more important than the other or choose one over the other. They just measure different things.
 
Since I live in the mountains, most SD related gun fights here are between 25 to 75 yards that are handgun related. Anything beyond that is dealt with Ak47, generally.
Click to expand...

WTF?

you live in the mountains of Afghanistan or something?

just how many "SD" gun fights have there been in your immediate area that you can compile this data?

sounds like an sks/30-30/ar15 is in your future.... but personally, i'd rather just move to some place safer........ like downtown compton
 
In your unique situation,I would never go anywhere without a short barreled military rifle with an extended magazine and a magazine or two in reserve.

A bullpup style rifle is very portable and still a very effective self defense or offensive weapon if offense is needed to make the threat leave your area.

I favor the 308 cartridge but those with much greater experience in this than I may favor other cartridges and you should well listen to any of these military or security people here who have had experience with what you are going through.

You are in a war zone after all.
 
Most revolver or pistol fights are from 3 to 7 yards and the rate of closure is much faster than you would think.

Can the 44 do it at distance.....most definitely yes, do you have the proficiency to make the shot at that range, that is the real question you need to ask yourself.

Save the distance shot for the rifle and use the handgun when its in close.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top