40S&W not so popular?
- Thread starter t45
- Start date
Sarge said:
jr24 said:
Actually that 147 grain HST is a dead heat with the better examples of the old 38 FBI Load. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
All high pressure calibers are to much recoil for me
I believe 40 S&W is too much for most People.
In my case I would never go over an 9mm Luger in an handgun. I have an 357 mag all steel SAA Revolver 5.5" but factory 357 mag rounds are a bit stout for me.
I even will sell my Plastik pistols in 9mm Luger since they are just too light and recoil is too much. That pistol will be replaced with an 9mm Luger 34 oz to 42 oz Metall pistol (Beretta 92 or Taurus PT92).
I remember James Yeager saying on Youtube that pistols (specially polymer ones) in high pressure calibers as 40 S&W, 357 SIG, 10mm just don't hold up and start to fail prematurely (during his classes I assume). It has to be eighter an 9mm Luger or 45 acp (low pressure caliber).
So there you have it. That sounds reasonable.
From the Plastik 9mm Pistol I developed an serious flinch which I detected each time I shot afterwards the 357 mag SAA 36 oz Revolver. An Plastik pistol in any caliber just screws up your Shooting skills.
An tiny polymer pistol in 380 acp is acceptable only for concealed carry (like the Beretta Pico 380 acp).
I believe 40 S&W is too much for most People.
In my case I would never go over an 9mm Luger in an handgun. I have an 357 mag all steel SAA Revolver 5.5" but factory 357 mag rounds are a bit stout for me.
I even will sell my Plastik pistols in 9mm Luger since they are just too light and recoil is too much. That pistol will be replaced with an 9mm Luger 34 oz to 42 oz Metall pistol (Beretta 92 or Taurus PT92).
I remember James Yeager saying on Youtube that pistols (specially polymer ones) in high pressure calibers as 40 S&W, 357 SIG, 10mm just don't hold up and start to fail prematurely (during his classes I assume). It has to be eighter an 9mm Luger or 45 acp (low pressure caliber).
So there you have it. That sounds reasonable.
From the Plastik 9mm Pistol I developed an serious flinch which I detected each time I shot afterwards the 357 mag SAA 36 oz Revolver. An Plastik pistol in any caliber just screws up your Shooting skills.
An tiny polymer pistol in 380 acp is acceptable only for concealed carry (like the Beretta Pico 380 acp).
I believe 9mm is the same pressure as 40s&w.
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TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
Well with pressure the "Internet experts" do not mean round pressure in chamber but rather recoil and wear of guns.
Wear&tear must be bigger for an pistol which shoots an 160 grain bullet going with 1200 fps (about 40 S&W) than for one Shooting an 115 grain bullet going with 1200 fps.
An 45acp would be an high pressure round as well if the 230 grain bullet would go with 1200 fps and that would mean much hardship for the gun anit would wear out early. But the 45acp 230 grain goes for about 800 fps.
We could enter in the realm of pressures. There seems to be an multiplication effect if you increase the bullet weight and powder Charge which wears the gun faster.
Another factor is the construction of the gun. I agree that most likely most early 40 S&W, 357 SIG and 10mm guns were made based on the 9mm Luger pistols Frames and designs.
Obviously if you Beef up the Beretta 92 to twice as much steel on all parts then the 10mm should shoot out of that 68 oz gun as pleasant as an 9mm Luger round and would not tear up the gun.
It seems the Plastik pistols better stay with 9mm Luger or less and for high pressure calibers you Need an all Metall gun to insure durability.
The high pressure caliber guns should be designed from scratch up.
Take just the Beretta Tomcat design. As I read Beretta tried hard to get that gun working in 380 acp or even 9mm Luger but they had allways Trouble with cracking weapons. That design seems to be limited to 25acp and 32acp.
Wear&tear must be bigger for an pistol which shoots an 160 grain bullet going with 1200 fps (about 40 S&W) than for one Shooting an 115 grain bullet going with 1200 fps.
An 45acp would be an high pressure round as well if the 230 grain bullet would go with 1200 fps and that would mean much hardship for the gun anit would wear out early. But the 45acp 230 grain goes for about 800 fps.
We could enter in the realm of pressures. There seems to be an multiplication effect if you increase the bullet weight and powder Charge which wears the gun faster.
Another factor is the construction of the gun. I agree that most likely most early 40 S&W, 357 SIG and 10mm guns were made based on the 9mm Luger pistols Frames and designs.
Obviously if you Beef up the Beretta 92 to twice as much steel on all parts then the 10mm should shoot out of that 68 oz gun as pleasant as an 9mm Luger round and would not tear up the gun.
It seems the Plastik pistols better stay with 9mm Luger or less and for high pressure calibers you Need an all Metall gun to insure durability.
The high pressure caliber guns should be designed from scratch up.
Take just the Beretta Tomcat design. As I read Beretta tried hard to get that gun working in 380 acp or even 9mm Luger but they had allways Trouble with cracking weapons. That design seems to be limited to 25acp and 32acp.
Then the experts need to choose words more carefully. Yeager was wrong when he made that statement. He has a tendency to make comments that he later reverses or as he might put it, "clarifies".
The Glock 20 and 29 seem to hold up to 10mm despite being polymer. There are plastic pistols such as the HK USP that also seem to hold up well to 40SW. It seems more to do with the design than the material. If you find one frame material more comfortable than another to shoot that's of course your call.
What's odd is there are any number of plastic pistols that I find just as soft shooting as say a P226 or CZ 75 (i.e. HK P2000, Glock 17/19, S&W M&P, etc). When I go back and forth between them I don't notice my shooting skills being screwed up. Again that may be subjective.
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I've taught many women and several smaller men to proficiently manage Glock model 22, 23 and 27 pistols. The agency I retired from had been using the same G22's for 10 years with no parts replacement other than replacing a couple of magazines that were dropped and stepped on during dynamic training exercises.
They ran fine. I ultimately replaced them with new Glocks, only because Glock had a trade-in program running that allowed me to do so for little more than the cost of parts for servicing them.
The notion that quality 40 caliber pistols are a service problem or require continual parts replacement is not only contrary to my experience, it is also something I never heard mentioned in several cycles of Glock Armorer School.
They ran fine. I ultimately replaced them with new Glocks, only because Glock had a trade-in program running that allowed me to do so for little more than the cost of parts for servicing them.
The notion that quality 40 caliber pistols are a service problem or require continual parts replacement is not only contrary to my experience, it is also something I never heard mentioned in several cycles of Glock Armorer School.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
I just repeat what I read and what James Yeager said.
I rather would have an Metall car than an Plastik Chassis car. But I am not an expert. Fact is that Plastik guns, even in 9mm Luger are way to light for me. The 36 oz SAA 1873 model Pietta Revolver is way more pleasant to shoot than any 9mm Luger Plastik pistol.
Obviously Glock as an Plastik worshiper manufacturer will not admit anyfailures and there may be None as well.
Yes polymer may be stronger since it gives but stainless steel you can pass to your grandchildren.
Still a Plastik gun is not a gun for me.
I rather would have an Metall car than an Plastik Chassis car. But I am not an expert. Fact is that Plastik guns, even in 9mm Luger are way to light for me. The 36 oz SAA 1873 model Pietta Revolver is way more pleasant to shoot than any 9mm Luger Plastik pistol.
Obviously Glock as an Plastik worshiper manufacturer will not admit anyfailures and there may be None as well.
Yes polymer may be stronger since it gives but stainless steel you can pass to your grandchildren.
Still a Plastik gun is not a gun for me.
I think it is funny that some continue to dismiss polymer and MIM as inferior in nearly all applications. The idea that polymer handguns are unsuitable for .40 S&W or .45 ACP or .357 Sig or 10 mm and others, is not supported by the evidence. Not to mention a "Plastik" handgun is far more easily carried than a similar all steel gun with no significant reduction in performance or longevity in my opinion. MIM parts allow quality components at a fraction of the cost. My guns are tools to be used. Plastic parts in my pistols and MIM parts in my revolvers don't bother me a bit.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
My Point is more this.
The Seecamp or NAA Guardian are not in 44 Magnum. And there is a reason.
On the other Hand an 44 Magnum Revolver is not in 25 acp eighter. And again there is an reason for.
Even the NAA Gaurdian in 32 acp is of considerably smaller size and weight than the NAA Guardian in 380 acp. And there is a reason for.
As well the 38 spl is considered an "snappy" caliber out of an all Metall snub nose Revolver.
An 10mm, 357 SIG, 45 acp (even this one) and 40 S&W better has at least 36 oz of weight (preferrably around 40 oz).
An 9mm Luger pistol better has at least 34 oz of weight.
And an 380 acp could have 22 oz as weight (as do most Plastik guns of all kinds of calibers have).
There is a reason why John Moses Browning made the 1911 as heavy as he did. As well his 1911 was all steel contrary what modern manufacturers try to do with the Plastik 1911's.
The Taurus PT1911 in 9mm Luger has about 39 oz "as John Moses Browning intended it to be" (to repeat again an hearsay).
Being me off smaller stature I by all means would stay away of any high pressure calibers. I fired once the Taurus Judge with an 410 shotshell and that is just brutal hurting Hand and fingers.
Another example: Try to shoot an 500 Magnum or 308 winchester cartridge out of the Seecamp concealed carry pistol.
The Seecamp or NAA Guardian are not in 44 Magnum. And there is a reason.
On the other Hand an 44 Magnum Revolver is not in 25 acp eighter. And again there is an reason for.
Even the NAA Gaurdian in 32 acp is of considerably smaller size and weight than the NAA Guardian in 380 acp. And there is a reason for.
As well the 38 spl is considered an "snappy" caliber out of an all Metall snub nose Revolver.
An 10mm, 357 SIG, 45 acp (even this one) and 40 S&W better has at least 36 oz of weight (preferrably around 40 oz).
An 9mm Luger pistol better has at least 34 oz of weight.
And an 380 acp could have 22 oz as weight (as do most Plastik guns of all kinds of calibers have).
There is a reason why John Moses Browning made the 1911 as heavy as he did. As well his 1911 was all steel contrary what modern manufacturers try to do with the Plastik 1911's.
The Taurus PT1911 in 9mm Luger has about 39 oz "as John Moses Browning intended it to be" (to repeat again an hearsay).
Being me off smaller stature I by all means would stay away of any high pressure calibers. I fired once the Taurus Judge with an 410 shotshell and that is just brutal hurting Hand and fingers.
Another example: Try to shoot an 500 Magnum or 308 winchester cartridge out of the Seecamp concealed carry pistol.
Right, but these requirements are your own personal preferences. I've shot pistols in various calibers in pistols lighter than you specify for the associated categories and found them controllable, heck some even pleasant. As I said there's nothing wrong with preference.
I'm not sure polymer was very popular in 1911. For some time aluminum framed pistols had issues with cracking. Steel was the norm for some time (I fully admit I'm no expert on early pistol design materials). Metallurgy and materials design aren't what they were in 1911. As for "plastic 1911s", besides Rock River and EAA there really aren't a lot of those on the market. I have shot the FNX-45, the HK45c, the Springfield XD Compact, and a Glock 21 and found them fine, as was the SIG P220 which while not polymer is much lighter than a full steel 1911. Albeit none of these are plastic 1911s.
Besides the fact that they wouldn't fit you're talking about a much bigger difference in recoil than say a 9mm in a Glock 17. Size and the ability to get a good hold on the pistol comes into play along with just weight.
I'm not 100% sure where your argument lies. If you like pistols of heavier weights I don't see anyone saying that's "wrong".