40S&W not so popular?
- Thread starter t45
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DA/SA has never appealed to me, though.HK makes a great pistol. If you're ok with DA/SA, that would be a good buy. I just can't bring myself to go with anything but consistent trigger for first and every shot. But I could do an HK with DA/SA provided it could be carried cocked and locked. But then, there's having to click off the safety. 
If all I carried were with safeties, that would be ok. BUT, I've migrated to mostly striker pistols without safeties for carry now.
Training-wise, I'm leery of sometimes carrying a pistol that is cocked & locked and needing the safety clicked off, and other times carrying a striker fired pistol with no thumb safety. Not the smartest way to roll.
Most of the time, I'm SIG P320 40, M&P40, M&P45C, or M&P40C - no safeties. So when I carry a 1911 (which I do enjoy from time to time), I'm going against my better judgement.
If all I carried were with safeties, that would be ok. BUT, I've migrated to mostly striker pistols without safeties for carry now.Training-wise, I'm leery of sometimes carrying a pistol that is cocked & locked and needing the safety clicked off, and other times carrying a striker fired pistol with no thumb safety. Not the smartest way to roll.
Most of the time, I'm SIG P320 40, M&P40, M&P45C, or M&P40C - no safeties. So when I carry a 1911 (which I do enjoy from time to time), I'm going against my better judgement.
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valkyrierdr
Inactive
For those of us that love the .40 it makes the guns and ammo cheaper at this time. It is a great alternative for those that want a bigger bullet than a 9 but can't handle a .45. I only use 180 gr. bullets. If I wanted. to shoot 155, I would buy a 9 and shoot 147.
I like big bullets.
I like big bullets.
Right, but the initial comment I responded to was contrasting .40 S&W Glocks to guns from other makers and pointing out that they "are some of the worst designed 40s as far as recoil control since they use the same slide (mass) and recoil spring as their 9mm models." That's why I pointed out that it's actually the combined slide/barrel mass and asked about comparison data from the other (presumably better designed) 40 S&W pistols to see how their combined slide/barrel mass compared to the Glock 40 S&W pistols.
It would be interesting to see the differences in design from one maker to another and how they compare. Where did you get the data you used in your assessment of Glock .40S&W pistols vs. those from other makers?
Ah yes. The article by the anonymous person named deadmeat2. A lot of people seized on the article because it told them things they wanted to hear. A closer look at his comments and claims is warranted. The link below provides just such a closer look.
Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!
Valk and Oysterboy, I believe in big and heavy bullets, as well.
.45auto is an excellent pistol caliber, which I enjoy and appreciate. I do like 230 gr HST defense ammo.
But I lean more toward .40S&W 180 gr. much of the time, recognizing the value of higher capacity and being an easier to control round than .45auto, while retaining a degree of caliber and heavier weight. Yes, it certainly is a compromise, as is true of all calibers, in one way or another. For me, it is the sweet spot in defense calibers and why I've invested heavily in pistols and ammunition for it.
That said, I continue to shoot and enjoy .45auto and, once in a while, shoot and enjoy 9mm, as well. But my "go to" defense pistols are definitely .40S&W with 14 to 18 rounds of 180 gr HST on board. I can shoot these pistols more rapidly with better control than I can with .45auto and the potency to bust through barriers without deflection is relatively good. My second choice is 230 gr. .45auto and in the G21SF and Springfield Hi-Cap Custom 1911, the capacity of 14 rounds is pretty good. I give up a little rapid fire control going from .40S&W to .45auto, but the round is relatively quite effective at busting barriers, not deflecting, and penetrating well.
.45auto is an excellent pistol caliber, which I enjoy and appreciate. I do like 230 gr HST defense ammo.
But I lean more toward .40S&W 180 gr. much of the time, recognizing the value of higher capacity and being an easier to control round than .45auto, while retaining a degree of caliber and heavier weight. Yes, it certainly is a compromise, as is true of all calibers, in one way or another. For me, it is the sweet spot in defense calibers and why I've invested heavily in pistols and ammunition for it.
That said, I continue to shoot and enjoy .45auto and, once in a while, shoot and enjoy 9mm, as well. But my "go to" defense pistols are definitely .40S&W with 14 to 18 rounds of 180 gr HST on board. I can shoot these pistols more rapidly with better control than I can with .45auto and the potency to bust through barriers without deflection is relatively good. My second choice is 230 gr. .45auto and in the G21SF and Springfield Hi-Cap Custom 1911, the capacity of 14 rounds is pretty good. I give up a little rapid fire control going from .40S&W to .45auto, but the round is relatively quite effective at busting barriers, not deflecting, and penetrating well.
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I've been shooting the 9mm since the early 90's. I was so far behind the curve that I became ahead of it not too long ago. I don't care what the FBI or most LE agencies use. From a curiosity stand point, I like to hear what others like to use. It's not only for caliber but, the gun brand/model and loads as well. It has no bearing on what I choose to use. I decided to stay with the 9mm and always placed more faith in myself as a user than others opinions. I'll continue to choose the 9mm for many reasons. Those reasons may or may not matter to the next guy.
There are several calibers that work well for others based off their own reasons. The .40 S&W is loosing popularity without a doubt but, will be around for a long time.
There are several calibers that work well for others based off their own reasons. The .40 S&W is loosing popularity without a doubt but, will be around for a long time.
Cosmodragoon
New member
Indeed. It's not just the size of the gun but the design. There is something peculiar about the recoil of .40 S&W that some of us find unpleasant. Some guns distribute the recoil force differently such that it is more pleasant. For instance, the first gun Rangerrich99 mentions below has a rotating barrel system. Check it out.
You train to always sweep the safety on the draw stroke, if there's no safety then there's no harm sweeping
A little elbow grease, Wolff springs lists factory spring weights and it's not hard to toss a slide on a postal scale.
I didn't look at every gun either the biggest thing that drew my attention was when I sold off my G23 and bought my FN I was looking at FNs at LGS and noticed the difference in the machining on the slide between the 9mm and 40 versions.
It's pretty easy to tell Ruger's SR series are different as the scallops on the slide are different and the SR40 weight listed is heavier than the SR9.
For many years I had access to shooting reports, witness statements, medical records w/photos, radiology imagery and autopsy reports from those types of events. I also developed a base of experience from another two decades of attending these picnics myself. I've also shot dozens of animals (a few bent on doing me in) with handguns, ranging is size from 35 to 300 pounds. As you may have guessed, I developed some opinions along the way.
Over the past 45 years I've seen countless new pistol loads offered as the ne plus ultra of anti-personnel loads and I've seen the FBI christen 'ideal' service cartridges three times- followed by the lemming stampede behind them. Frankly I'd rather watch Bullwinkle than suffer through another one. At least Bullwinkle was written by witty people who assumed their audience capable of conscious thought.
Here's what I think. For unobstructed, face-on body shots to people who acknowledge getting shot's a bad thing, almost any pistol will work. Pack anything up to & including a 9mm and be happy. If the shootee realizes he's been hit, he'll kill you or retreat- most likely the latter.
Substantial capacity in your defense gun is an asset because it reduces the likelihood you'll need to reload. The ability to get centerline hits quick is priceless, but I've never seen a gunfight where 'split times' had an effect on the outcome. Generally, everybody opens with a barrage that has minimal effect on all but the unlucky.* Sensible survivors then attempt to apply some precision and take the other guy out. With a cool head, common sense and persistence, that works.
If you add four legs, weight over 200 pounds, rage, drugs, alcohol, intervening limbs or oblique angles to the mix, everything changes. You better be able to bore a big hole through him/it from any angle and smash support structures along the way. This is best accomplished with larger bores, more bullet weight and ample velocity for full penetration. Yes, full penetration. Anything effective enough in the worst case will fully penetrate in the best case. Yes, it will have some recoil. Either commit to mastering it or carry something lighter- your choice.
My notion of an ideal anti-personnel rig is a 40/165/XTP or HST type bullet at 1100 fps from a pistol with substantial capacity, along with a spare magazine. I've made do with that on 100+ pound attacking dogs (plural) inside 7 yards and it was just enough. That's the only event where a well directed burst of shots saved my bacon (all landed in the chest) and I distinctly remember wishing for my single action Ruger 45 Colt loaded with 255 SWC's at 1050 fps. I guess to a degree, we are products of our environment
*You have to be good. The other guy only has to be lucky.
Over the past 45 years I've seen countless new pistol loads offered as the ne plus ultra of anti-personnel loads and I've seen the FBI christen 'ideal' service cartridges three times- followed by the lemming stampede behind them. Frankly I'd rather watch Bullwinkle than suffer through another one. At least Bullwinkle was written by witty people who assumed their audience capable of conscious thought.
Here's what I think. For unobstructed, face-on body shots to people who acknowledge getting shot's a bad thing, almost any pistol will work. Pack anything up to & including a 9mm and be happy. If the shootee realizes he's been hit, he'll kill you or retreat- most likely the latter.
Substantial capacity in your defense gun is an asset because it reduces the likelihood you'll need to reload. The ability to get centerline hits quick is priceless, but I've never seen a gunfight where 'split times' had an effect on the outcome. Generally, everybody opens with a barrage that has minimal effect on all but the unlucky.* Sensible survivors then attempt to apply some precision and take the other guy out. With a cool head, common sense and persistence, that works.
If you add four legs, weight over 200 pounds, rage, drugs, alcohol, intervening limbs or oblique angles to the mix, everything changes. You better be able to bore a big hole through him/it from any angle and smash support structures along the way. This is best accomplished with larger bores, more bullet weight and ample velocity for full penetration. Yes, full penetration. Anything effective enough in the worst case will fully penetrate in the best case. Yes, it will have some recoil. Either commit to mastering it or carry something lighter- your choice.
My notion of an ideal anti-personnel rig is a 40/165/XTP or HST type bullet at 1100 fps from a pistol with substantial capacity, along with a spare magazine. I've made do with that on 100+ pound attacking dogs (plural) inside 7 yards and it was just enough. That's the only event where a well directed burst of shots saved my bacon (all landed in the chest) and I distinctly remember wishing for my single action Ruger 45 Colt loaded with 255 SWC's at 1050 fps. I guess to a degree, we are products of our environment
*You have to be good. The other guy only has to be lucky.
Well put Sarge!For many years I had access to shooting reports, witness statements, medical records w/photos, radiology imagery and autopsy reports from those types of events. I also developed a base of experience from another two decades of attending these picnics myself. I've also shot dozens of animals (a few bent on doing me in) with handguns, ranging is size from 35 to 300 pounds. As you may have guessed, I developed some opinions along the way.
Over the past 45 years I've seen countless new pistol loads offered as the ne plus ultra of anti-personnel loads and I've seen the FBI christen 'ideal' service cartridges three times- followed by the lemming stampede behind them. Frankly I'd rather watch Bullwinkle than suffer through another one. At least Bullwinkle was written by witty people who assumed their audience capable of conscious thought.
Here's what I think. For unobstructed, face-on body shots to people who acknowledge getting shot's a bad thing, almost any pistol will work. Pack anything up to & including a 9mm and be happy. If the shootee realizes he's been hit, he'll kill you or retreat- most likely the latter.
Substantial capacity in your defense gun is an asset because it reduces the likelihood you'll need to reload. The ability to get centerline hits quick is priceless, but I've never seen a gunfight where 'split times' had an effect on the outcome. Generally, everybody opens with a barrage that has minimal effect on all but the unlucky.* Sensible survivors then attempt to apply some precision and take the other guy out. With a cool head, common sense and persistence, that works.
If you add four legs, weight over 200 pounds, rage, drugs, alcohol, intervening limbs or oblique angles to the mix, everything changes. You better be able to bore a big hole through him/it from any angle and smash support structures along the way. This is best accomplished with larger bores, more bullet weight and ample velocity for full penetration. Yes, full penetration. Anything effective enough in the worst case will fully penetrate in the best case. Yes, it will have some recoil. Either commit to mastering it or carry something lighter- your choice.
My notion of an ideal anti-personnel rig is a 40/165/XTP or HST type bullet at 1100 fps from a pistol with substantial capacity, along with a spare magazine. I've made do with that on 100+ pound attacking dogs (plural) inside 7 yards and it was just enough. That's the only event where a well directed burst of shots saved my bacon (all landed in the chest) and I distinctly remember wishing for my single action Ruger 45 Colt loaded with 255 SWC's at 1050 fps. I guess to a degree, we are products of our environment
*You have to be good. The other guy only has to be lucky.
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Sarge, I fully concur with your assessment and conclusions. Well-presented, also.
My notion of an ideal anti-personnel set-up is almost identical to yours: full size .40S&W, varying only in my choice of 180 gr. HST. I like the capacity, the higher velocity obtained from the longer barrel length, and the soft-shooting control granted by the heavier weight and longer slide/barrel. Carrying these pistols is felt a bit more than carrying smaller pistols, but they are easily concealed and with a good belt and holster are not difficult to carry at all. I can conceal them wearing my usual attire of shorts and an ample weight Duluth t-shirt.
16-rounds in my M&P40 before a reload; 15-rounds in the SIG P320 40; 17-rounds in the STI Edge 40.
Not an especially light-weight gun to carry, but the Edge with 5" barrel and full-length dust cover launches .40S&W with the felt recoil of a 9mm target load. This pistol is pure-joy to shoot! And has capacity up to 21-rounds with a 140mm magazine. No wonder that it has been the darling of the competition-games crowd for many years.
The M&P40 with 4.25" barrel is a good bit lighter, the weight less-felt when carrying, and is almost as soft-shooting as the Edge.
The key to easy concealment of these full-size pistols is not wearing girly-tight-fitting shirts, but rather a relaxed-fit shirt. The ample-weight t-shirts from Duluth are perfect for concealing a pistol.
The SIG P320 40 Full size, with 4.75" barrel strikes a balance between the 5" Edge and the 4.25" M&P40. It is exceptionally soft-shooting, as well - with a magnificent trigger among striker-fired pistols.
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Spring weights will vary for a number of reasons--for example striker fired guns tend to have heavier springs than similar size/weight hammer fired guns. Do you remember how many slides you weighed and any weight comparison information from the 40 & 9mm slides you weighed? Or perhaps even a rough average weight difference?