4 O’Clock vs Appendix pros and cons

chaim said:
I may also simply move my gun from the 3-4 o' clock position forward to something between 2 and 3
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At 2 o'clock, keeping the weapon covered may be more difficult, and you have some of the same risk issues of AIWB carry -- i.e., a potential risk of covering your own body during presentation -- but without the much-better concealment potential of AIWB carry.

At 3 o'clock, a holstered gun can really stick out no matter what your body type might be. Moving it a bit more to the rear makes the holstered gun less obvious -- and if you're wearing an unbuttoned outer shirt or light jacket, a flap isn't as likely to flip back and reveal the weapon.

Using a cross-draw IWB Holster at the 2:30 position may be an option that nobody has mentioned, but you still have to worry about unwanted exposure of the weapon.
 
I AIWB everything. Extremely quick access and best security. You got to have the body type for it to be comfortable and usable. Some guys try to pull it off when they have a stomach bigger than their chest and they also suffer from what is politely termed "Noassatol". Prime comfort is a waist size no bigger than mid 30s. And of course trigger discipline is tantamount.
 
so many comments about people noticing the bump or noticing the imprint.

This is just not reality. I have found that people in general are not close to being that aware.

no one is going to notice or will be aware you are carrying.

early on in my EDC life, i was always paranoid everyone would know I was carrying.

then one afternoon at a local eatery, which was very busy at the time, i was having dinner with the wife and 2 kids. Was looking at the people near me, trying to determine who knew I was carrying.

A gentlemen walked in with a lady. open carry. belt holster on right hip. I did not see one person notice this fact. I kept watching him as he was seated, and everyone he passed. including the hostess and waitress. Not one person so much as turned their head or made any indication they noticed this guy.

Since then I have carried without a second thought about what people notice.

long story short. carry what and how is comfortable to you. nothing else maters. no one will know either way.

for me its my M&P compact in a whitehat ISWB holster behind my right hip. I dont even know its there, it never moves, and will bet my house not one person will ever notice.
 
You appear to be an experienced martial artist, familiar with or skilled in Brazilian Jui Jitsu. Does your experience apply to others who don't have your martial arts skills (and conditioning), or who may already be skilled in retention techniques using the 4 o'clock method?
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To answer a question not asked of me but because I feel like adding what may, possibly, be useful.

Position your arm to draw a gun from a 4 o'clock position. Notice how the shoulder is at the edge of movement (or near it), the elbow is at an odd angle, and even the wrist is not exactly comfortable. If you are not certain that is true just hold it there for awhile and feel your muscles not like it. Now imagine your hand gets pinned at your gun and you are rolling around on the ground with an assailant. There is a a good chance one of those joints is going to create a problem. "The adrenaline will see me through it" is not a great strategy here. I've had elbow injuries in my non-dominant hand. Maybe the heat of the moment will help but it gets a lot of your attention very quickly.

Well the wrist may be a concern with appendix carry it is less so than it would be in 4 o'clock carry. Your arms are, generally, meant to be in front of you.

Yes I still carry 4 o'clock because I have countless hours into training to do it and don't really feel like retraining muscle memory. BUT one can see several advantages to appendix carry.
 
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"Now imagine your hand gets pinned at your gun and you are rolling around on the ground with an assailant."

I know every situation is different, but if you allow the assailant to get that close before drawing, you have already failed.

just my opinion.
 
I know every situation is different, but if you allow the assailant to get that close before drawing, you have already failed.
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There is truth to this statement. However the statement "if you have to draw your gun you have already failed" also holds some truth as well. The fact of the matter is any situation in which you have to draw your gun has already gone badly and can be second guessed. I would wager there are many situations where physical proximity is a major concern given the laws around brandishment. By the time you realize you should draw your gun the situation is far less than ideal.
 
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You appear to be an experienced martial artist, familiar with or skilled in Brazilian Jui Jitsu. Does your experience apply to others who don't have your martial arts skills (and conditioning), or who may already be skilled in retention techniques using the 4 o'clock method?
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Forget any experience or training in my background. Lets just talk body mechanics and leverage. People are strongest with their arms close to 12:00 and close to the body. As we move our arms away from our core OR towards the rear of our bodies we lose strength and dexterity.

The further to the rear our arms go, the worse it gets. Thats why we (in BJJ) train “T-rex arms” in so many situations. Extended arms are targets because of the venerability. A fight that gets my opponents hand at his 4:00 is an invitation to a Kimura.

Forget specific techniques for a moment. Just think about which holster position allows you to push the gun into the holster with more strength...1:00 or 4:00?

Oh, and 1:00 allows me to use BOTH hands. So, i can lock the gun down with EITHER hand and use the other to counter. 4:00 limits those options.
 
I know every situation is different, but if you allow the assailant to get that close before drawing, you have already failed.
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I couldnt DISAGREE more. Nobody can walk around all day/everyday ready to draw on anybody that closes within 15’. Its just not reality.

Even in Law Enforcement, where we try to keep a reactionary gap, its not ALWAYS possible.

In addition, not everything is a gunfight. The guy that wants to punch you because you took his parking place is not “shootable” and you need other options. Sometimes the fight is just physical, but you need to be able to protect the gun you are carrying.
 
hounddog409 said:
so many comments about people noticing the bump or noticing the imprint.

This is just not reality. I have found that people in general are not close to being that aware.

no one is going to notice or will be aware you are carrying.

early on in my EDC life, i was always paranoid everyone would know I was carrying.

then one afternoon at a local eatery, which was very busy at the time, i was having dinner with the wife and 2 kids. Was looking at the people near me, trying to determine who knew I was carrying.

A gentlemen walked in with a lady. open carry. belt holster on right hip. I did not see one person notice this fact. I kept watching him as he was seated, and everyone he passed. including the hostess and waitress. Not one person so much as turned their head or made any indication they noticed this guy.

Since then I have carried without a second thought about what people notice.
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Not all jurisdictions allow open carry, and even when they do, there are often laws against brandishing or carrying "to the terror of the public" prompted by the open display of weapons.

While the law may be on your side, you may still waste time and effort dealing with an LEO who has been called to check out this guy with a gun who is scaring citizens.

hounddog409 said:
I know every situation is different, but if you allow the assailant to get that close before drawing, you have already failed.
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Your comments seem to suggest that saying that nobody can ever walk up on you quietly from behind, or that nobody can come at you quickly from the side (your carry side).

It's almost impossible to be 100% (or even 75%) vigilant all the time. And if you're with someone, drawing your weapon may not always be your first course of action. As others have noted, drawing a weapon may not always be appropriate or legally justified.

In some jurisdictions, for example, shining a weapon-mounted light on another person can be considered assault, and while you thought you were just evaluating a threat, an innocent passerby may feel you've stepped over the line by pointing a loaded weapon at him or her. If you've misread the situation, and there was no threat, drawing your weapon may get YOU in trouble rather than preventing it.

Open carry gives serious attackers a warning -- and the attacker(s) can choose to pick a different target or just continue their attack with a better understanding of what they're up against.
 
"Not all jurisdictions allow open carry, and even when they do, there are often laws against brandishing or carrying "to the terror of the public" prompted by the open display of weapons.

While the law may be on your side, you may still waste time and effort dealing with an LEO who has been called to check out this guy with a gun who is scaring citizens."

What are you talking about? Seems like you missed the point. By a mile.

The point is no one noticed this guy when open carrying. No one will know you are carrying conceled.

And no I do not live in an open carry state.
 
After all this I don’t know if I am more knowledgeable or confused ??????-CENSORED-♂️
Thanks to all who have posted. This has been a very informative and thought provoking thread.

For me, currently, 4’O’clock IWB is most “comfortable” but I am going to work on AIWB as there are situations where I can see this as being useful. As I stated I am very new to EDC so taking baby steps I guess. I carried all weekend on a trip we took to St Louis and found the biggest challenge was packing the right clothing. I was somewhat paranoid that people would notice me printing but in reality I did not see anyone pay any attention to me who looked the least bit interested in what I was doing.
 
hounddog409 said:
What are you talking about? Seems like you missed the point. By a mile.

The point is no one noticed this guy when open carrying. No one will know you are carrying conceled.

And no I do not live in an open carry state.
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People DO notice.That would NOT happen in most places where open-carry is not allowed.

People notice, and are uncomfortable. You just think they didn't noitce. In fact, they often ask the service staff or management of the restaurant to call the police in OPEN CARRY states.

I had one friend who was carrying concealed be asked to leave the restaurant when his weapon was noticed by the carry staff in an open carry state. Because he was an auxiliary police officer but in civilian clothes, and had his police ID with him, he was allowed to stay.

Your actions may make YOU feel better, but it won't make those around you feel better. More than you realize may have noticed. If you keep it up, you may lose the right to carry openly or carry at all. Sheriffs have a lot of power to deal with such situations, and you may not like the outcome.
 
You moved or were visiting another state?
Or was the "gentleman" violating the law with open carry or perhaps a known LEO?

Could have been a known LEO for all I know. Which would only explain the wait staff....not all the patrons.
 
Next time you notice some V.I.P. either private or gov't who obviously has armed bodyguards watch where their hands are located. Most have their hands folded in front of them in the "figleaf" position. Even the females and especially those closest to the protectee. There's a reason for this.
 
What is the purpose of the black hook-like device on he Vedder?
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A lot of newer kydex IWB’s are coming with a similar attachment. It is designed to push the butt of the gun tighter to the body for added concealment
 
I also went with the Vedder light tuck for appendix carry . I carry a Colt New Agent in 45acp . Very comfortable and safe way to carry . I also have a custom holster leather by R Grizzle for a 4 o'clock carry , both work great but the position you carry depends on what circumstances your carrying for .
PS
That black hook is a add on . You don't need it unless you carry a full size for better concealment .
 
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