4 O’Clock vs Appendix pros and cons

rcollier said:
So neophyte question does AIWB only apply to appendix? As I am looking at different holster configurations some brands seem to indicate AIWB is for appendix while others more geared to other carry positions.
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Just to be clear, the “A” in “AIWB” stands for “appendix” (not trying to be insulting at all, it’s just not clear from your post that you’re aware of this). So, in theory, any holster marketed as AIWB should be primarily intended for appendix carry.

Like HighValleyRanch pointed out, most (if not all) of AIWB holsters are designed without a cant (or are adjustable to not have a cant). So any IWB holster without a cant (or that can be adjusted to not have a cant) can be used for AIWB carry. But some work better than others. Often a holster specifically designed for AIWB will also have the ability to adjust the ride height of the holster. And many will have an optional “claw” or “wing” add-on that has been previously discussed (or have one built-in like on the Tenicor Velo). And a few have a “bump” or “wedge” add-on that has also been previously discussed (or have one built in like on the Velo).

Like TunnelRat pointed out, an AIWB holster can be worn elsewhere, but if it’s not able to be adjusted to have a cant it will be less concealable for many people if worn behind the hip. And I’ve never seen anyone try wearing (or tried wearing myself) an appendix holster with a wing and/or a bump anywhere but in the appendix position, so I’m not sure how well that would work. But every AIWB holster I’ve seen with a wing was designed to have the wing contact the belt when worn without any cant, so if you were able to adjust he holster to be canted and you wore the holster behind the hip the wing wouldn’t work as well. And the bump is designed to fit in the space in your pelvis right next to your genitals, so it would probably be uncomfortable using it behind the hip.
 
I carry 3 o'clock with a straight cant holster. I find it faster. I'm also carrying a Glock this way and the natural angle of the grip sort of helps.
 
I personally find the Vedder Light Tuck holster with the claw attachment to be useful at any position. Straight drop if worn AIWB, fully canted if worn around 4:00. Dedicated AIWB holsters without adjustments can be worn at 4:00 also, and the claws definitely aid concealment, but the cant makes them easier to draw from behind the hip.
 
Theohazard said:
Just to be clear, the “A” in “AIWB” stands for “appendix” (not trying to be insulting at all, it’s just not clear from your post that you’re aware of this). So, in theory, any holster marketed as AIWB should be primarily intended for appendix carry.

Like HighValleyRanch pointed out, most (if not all) of AIWB holsters are designed without a cant (or are adjustable to not have a cant). So any IWB holster without a cant (or that can be adjusted to not have a cant) can be used for AIWB carry. But some work better than others. Often a holster specifically designed for AIWB will also have the ability to adjust the ride height of the holster. And many will have an optional “claw” or “wing” add-on that has been previously discussed (or have one built-in like on the Tenicor Velo). And a few have a “bump” or “wedge” add-on that has also been previously discussed (or have one built in like on the Velo).

Like TunnelRat pointed out, an AIWB holster can be worn elsewhere, but if it’s not able to be adjusted to have a cant it will be less concealable for many people if worn behind the hip. And I’ve never seen anyone try wearing (or tried wearing myself) an appendix holster with a wing and/or a bump anywhere but in the appendix position, so I’m not sure how well that would work. But every AIWB holster I’ve seen with a wing was designed to have the wing contact the belt when worn without any cant, so if you were able to adjust he holster to be canted and you wore the holster behind the hip the wing wouldn’t work as well. And the bump is designed to fit in the space in your pelvis right next to your genitals, so it would probably be uncomfortable using it behind the hip.
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Not insulted at all. I was not sure what the A meant AIWB vs IWB
Thanks.
 
I think there are arguments FOR and AGAINST either carry method.

The one thing I've not seen addressed in this sort of discussion is what happens, if you don't have time to clear the holster, and using EITHER approach, you are struggling to control the weapon and keep it out of your attacker's hands?

Appendix carry lets you use TWO HANDS when trying to retain the weapon more easily, but it also put the battle zone for that struggle near the femoral arteries.

The 4 o'clock carry only lets you easily use one hand, but you can twist and turn in the "retention" battle until you can get your other hand free to help, without as easily having the gun cover a vital area.

With either carry method the holster and the garment can be tugged to a different position, so where the struggle starts isn't necessarily where it will end.

Has anyone here actually done any retention training using either or both carry methods?
 
You are assuming in the above that you see the threat about to happen. The trouble with 4 o'clock and further ASOB, is that you might never see that the attacker has noticed your weapon printing and is coming up behind you to grab the weapon. He gets you immediately into a choke hold, and is grabbing your weapon. You will not have two hands to defend.

While I have not had much firearms force on force training, I've had years of martial arts training.
 
The one thing I've not seen addressed in this sort of discussion is what happens, if you don't have time to clear the holster, and using EITHER approach, you are struggling to control the weapon and keep it out of your attacker's hands?
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Walt, see post #19
 
HighValleyRanch said:
You are assuming in the above that you see the threat about to happen. The trouble with 4 o'clock and further ASOB, is that you might never see that the attacker has noticed your weapon printing and is coming up behind you to grab the weapon. He gets you immediately into a choke hold, and is grabbing your weapon. You will not have two hands to defend.

While I have not had much firearms force on force training, I've had years of martial arts training.
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In the situation you just described, grabbed unaware from behind and being put in a choke hold, I don't think going for your pistol, appendix or otherwise, is the best course of action at that point. I don't think that was your point, it's just an observation. There are also retention techniques for hip carry.

As far as printing is concerned, I think there are a number of situations where appendix has advantages in that area. But I don't think not carrying appendix is a guarantee that you will print just as carrying appendix isn't a guarantee that you won't print. Either way it's a system that needs work. Threats can also come from the front as well as behind. A fight can start as something else and evolve into a gun grab attempt where you may be facing the attacker.

I did an afternoon where we defended from and tried gun grabs using cleared pistols in people's holsters. I did find that hip carry had one advantage in that if you were in a scuffle where someone came at you from the front you could turn the firearm away from the attacker. Sometimes this was enough to still get the pistol drawn. For people carrying appendix sometimes they would get compressed and have a hard time. I did find though that shorter barreled pistols carried appendix could usually be drawn fast enough to mitigate the issue if you were practiced.

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RE: see post #19 and see post #9.

I saw assertions and claims in those posts but no proofs. The assertions cited in #9 and #19, and those PROs and CONs may be correct.

That said, I'd like to hear from people who have ACTUALLY tried (as was the case with TUNNEL RAT's reply above) both method in some sort of real-life or classroom/training simulations. I suspect there are more CONs to both methods than listed in earlier responses.

I'm not taking sides in this discussion, but simply trying to learn. I don't know enough about AWIB, yet.

I sometimes pocket carry, and realize that this method can really be a problem (especially if sitting) unless my hand is already grasping the gun in the pocket holster when I'm ready to present the weapon -- but I never see that disadvantage addressed by pocket-carry advocates.

Situational awareness is, of course, the key defense in any self-defense event, but I'm not sure that everybody's "RADAR" is always 100% effective.

What techniques are most effective when defending against attempts by an attacker to take the weapons away BEFORE it is removed from the carry position, when the attacker is trying to take the weapon from the defender, or when the attacker is trying to keep the weapon in the holster/carry position while continuing the attack?

If you're on the ground (or on your way there), during an early part of the altercation -- ending up on your back or your belly, or curled up in a fetal position to minimize the effect of blows -- bringing your weapon to bear can be more or less difficult, depending on carry method.

Arm movement may be easier with AWIB when starting from a seated position than 4 o'clock, and actually getting your hand on your weapon might be less obvious with AWIB carry, too. But getting the gun into play may be more difficult than with 4 o'clock carry once your hand is on it if you must remain seated and you're in a restaurant, at a table, etc. With either method, I'm sure you can move in ways that will ease the draw.

Does anyone teach retention methods for AWIB? Or do most instructors consider it a too-risky method to teach in a classroom environment?
 
You could teach it with blue guns, or like we did in my case cleared firearms. The problem with blue guns is having something that fit everyone's holster. What we did was the instructor had us stand in a line and then clear our firearms. Then the instructor walked down the line, double checked the firearms were clear with magazines out and hammers down or strikers released, and then wrapped tape around the front of the slide and frame. This prevented the slide from being able to go far enough back to chamber a round. Anytime anyone left the area their pistol was rechecked. It provided what seemed like a relative amount of security.

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That said, I'd like to hear from people who have ACTUALLY tried (as was the case with TUNNEL RAT's reply above) both method in some sort of real-life or classroom/training simulations. I suspect there are more CONs to both methods than listed in earlier responses.
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I guess you missed the part in post 19, where i told about testing AIWB on the mat with my BJJ instructor.
 
Long time ago I read an article on an assassin that they caught in the Philippines. He had murdered several people including some police officers. Seems his favorite way to carry was a 1911 stuffed down the front of his pants. With the thumb safety off and the grip safety tied.
He would casually walk up to his victims and pull the 1911 from the front of his waistband. Basically from an Appendix carry with no holster and kill them. The police there did a little test with him using an unloaded 1911 going against various officers armed with their guns in different positions. Even knowing what was coming all the other positions lost. So Appendix carry was and is very fast to draw from. It's biggest pro.
The con is that according to the stats when people shoot themselves on the draw the ones that die are usually Appendix carry. You hit your groin or worse your femoral artery. Or maybe both. Femoral artery you die very fast. Biggest con.
A few years ago an officer accidentally shot himself in the femoral artery. Was at the station so medical help was right there. They pumped a bunch of blood into him going to the hospital. But it went out faster than they could put it in. He died. Only you can weigh the pro's and cons of Appendix carry and decide for yourself if it's right for you.
For me the risk isn't worth the possible reward of a faster draw. In my humble experience situational awareness has been what's saved my butt a few times.It gave me time to get my weapon ready before the other guy. Their probably are instances where a few split seconds on a draw did make a difference in an incident. Most of the time I don't think being a quick draw is what will save you.
 
sigxder said:
For me the risk isn't worth the possible reward of a faster draw.
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I don’t carry appendix because it’s a faster draw, that’s just a bonus. No, I (and many others in this thread) primarily carry appendix because it’s far more concealable. And having my gun stay completely hidden matters a lot to me. I live in a city that is fairly anti-gun, and I go a lot of places where it’s perfectly legal to carry, but socially very unacceptable. The other parents (mostly moms) at the Monday afternoon story time here in our local library (located in a neighborhood full of the type of people who are usually very anti-gun) would have a cow if they knew I always carried a gun. Sitting on the floor with my gun behind the hip wearing a T-shirt, my gun would print at best and be exposed at worst. But with appendix carry, its completely hidden (heck, it’s even more concealed when I sit down or bend over).
 
Sharkbite said:
I guess you missed the part in post 19, where i told about testing AIWB on the mat with my BJJ instructor.
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Testing AIWB with your BJJ instructor wasn't exactly what I had in mind -- although it's certainly more meaningful than NOT having tried it out that way. You wrote:
Sharkbite said:
...Ive pressure tested it in the gym with my BJJ coach and a red gun. AIWB was better in all aspects vs a strong side hip carry when tied in with an assailant or on the ground.
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You appear to be an experienced martial artist, familiar with or skilled in Brazilian Jui Jitsu. Does your experience apply to others who don't have your martial arts skills (and conditioning), or who may already be skilled in retention techniques using the 4 o'clock method?
 
Went to the range yesterday..while waiting, the gent in shorts and TShirt next to me was getting checked in. At this range, they check the ammo with a magnet to make sure it isn't steel. While the gent bent over to grab his YUGE bag and get the ammo, his BIG 1911 stuck out, from under his shirt..

Nobody there would grab his gun but somebody sure could have..

why I carry AIWB..
 
How does AIWB work for big guys? I see (and make) a lot of assumptions, but rarely hear from those who have tried it. It seems to me that it would be uncomfortable (assumption), and probably a slower draw due to the gut spilling over my belt (assumption), but I also have more space under there that might help with concealment (assumption). I assume (again) that it would take a good holster for it to work, but I don't want to invest $70+ for a dedicated AIWB holster that I might only use once. I may try it with a cheaper IWB I have with no cant, but if it doesn't work the only thing it tells me definitively is that it doesn't work with a cheap holster. Have any big guys out there actually given it a try?
 
I'm pretty sure some bigger guys have tried and do it.

As for the cost of a holster, for me compared to ammo and firearms it's not really an issue. That said there are vendors that have money back guarantees.

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Between the video above and another YouTube linked to it, it looks possible. Since I've moved to bigger guns when I carry, I like the idea of AIWB since it sounds like it is practically ideal for larger guns. I may also simply move my gun from the 3-4 o' clock position forward to something between 2 and 3
 
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