4 O’Clock vs Appendix pros and cons
- Thread starter rcollier
- Start date
Theohazard
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Yeah, I recommend only making the switch to appendix carry if you have a specific need for it. For me, it was wanting extra concealability when wearing just a T-shirt, especially when bending over to pick up my daughter, who was a toddler at the time.
I’ve been carrying at 11 o’clock for over 10 years, and quite comfortably I might add. Generally speaking, I stick to single action pistols (i.e. commander size 1911’s with Ambi thumb safeties and on occasion a factory stock Browning Hi Power). I prefer the added margin of safety a manual thumb safety provides while reholstering. You must be very careful and slow while placing a striker fired pistol back in it’s holster for obvious reasons. Like most folks, I did a lot of experimenting with carry position before settling on appendix carry. My holsters are all made by J M Custom Holsters.
Not trying to be snarky -- is a 4:00 carrier willing to destroy the person in line behind them at Wal-Mart when they bend over to pick something up?
Willing to shoot through the seat of the car when driving?
I think there's a certain amount of reasonable interpretation involved here, namely, never to let the muzzle of an unholstered gun cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
I believe it's generally good practice to move, add, remove the holster from your belt together with the gun whenever possible, so that the gun never has to be handled. In fact this is one of the reasons that I *do* carry AIWB. I have to frequently move it from my belt, to a safe in the car, and back again as I go to various enlightened locations that are protected from criminals by sheets of "Gun Free" paper.
I never take the gun out of the holster, and it's far easier to do this with something like a Vedder Light Tuck at AIWB than a 2-clip holster behind your hip. Even a single clip holster like the Vedder is a chore to put on and off the belt behind you while seated in a car.
I would argue that any position that makes it possible to handle a loaded gun as little as possible, is safer overall.
That's just my belief. One of many reasons that so many of us do carry AIWB.
Theohazard
New member
OhioGuy is right: That doesn’t apply to a gun that’s properly secured in a quality holster. Otherwise you wouldn’t be able to step over your dog or cat when carrying a gun on your belt, you wouldn’t be able to use most shoulder holsters, you wouldn’t be able to bend over when hip carrying, and SWAT cops and operators couldn’t sit down when carrying with a drop holster. Heck, by that logic you wouldn’t even be able to go to the second floor of your house when people are downstairs if you’re carrying a gun anywhere on your belt.
The first applies to people carrying AIWB and people carrying at 4 o'clock (and I do make an effort not to step over my dogs but around them when I carry). The others can be legitimate concerns. It's one reason I bend at the knees and not the waist (though my holster doesn't cant remotely enough to shoot someone outside of arm's distance when I bend at the waist). It's one reason I'm mindful of carrying in an upstairs floor (I use a high ready rather than a low ready in the upper floor my two story dwelling). It's one reason I wouldn't shoulder holster carry for holsters that have the pistol horizontal. There are limits to how much any person can manage a muzzle in a given environment, but we do the utmost to keep it oriented in the direction that minimizes the danger to persons and property.
The rest position of the muzzle when carrying appendix is different than when carrying at 4 o'clock. It just is. Does that mean it shouldn't be done? No, but at some level you have to acknowledge the difference. It's part of the reason we have people here saying they don't recommend carrying AIWB for newer shooters. To me it's an added level of risk that has to be acknowledged. Now there are other areas where 4 o'clock carry has different forms of risk, many of which are advantages of AIWB. But we accept all the differences and all the risks or we're just telling ourselves what we want to hear.
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Theohazard
New member
I fully acknowledge that AIWB carries a greater risk than other forms of carry to people who aren’t experience and skilled with proper gun handling. However, that’s not because of where the gun is pointed while it’s secured in the holster, it’s due to the risk of someone with poor gun handling skills shooting themself during the draw or the reholstering process and where he might shoot himself; shooting yourself in the hip or the behind is sure better than shooting yourself in the femoral artery.
I'd disagree that the direction of the muzzle at rest isn't of importance.
Would you take a loaded pistol that is in a holster and point the muzzle directly at another person, simply because it was in a holster? Or would you still exercise a level of caution? To me muzzle discipline does still apply even when carrying in a holster. Yes there are limitations in that carrying results in a muzzle pointed somewhere, but that doesn't mean muzzle discipline is immediately no longer of concern simply from being in a holster, imo.
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Theohazard
New member
You make a good point, maybe I should have worded that differently. No, I wouldn’t do that; and yes, I would still exercise a level of caution. That said, it wouldn’t be the same as if I did it with an unholstered firearm.TunnelRat said:
It is virtually impossible for a quality handgun to discharge when secured in a quality holster; the main danger of carrying isn’t when the gun is in the holster but instead it’s when it’s going in or coming out. And because of that we treat holstered guns differently than unholstered guns. If we didn’t, then all the normal carry situations I mentioned in post #29 would be unacceptable, not just AIWB carry.
I’ll ask you a version of your question: Would you feel the same if a police officer sat down across from you wearing a drop holster as you would if he drew his gun and pointed it at you?
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No I wouldn't, but notice my comparison didn't involve the firearm unholstered because that isn't the question here. We're comparing two methods of carry in a holster. I agree that a firearm that is unholstered is more susceptible to outside interference than one that is holstered, that seems obvious. But as I have given examples above even when a firearm is holstered I'm still mindful of the muzzle.
I acknowledged above that there are limitations in carrying and preventing a firearm from ever sweeping a person with the muzzle based on the situation. But those limitations don't mean I abandon attempts to deal with those situations. In your example above, if someone sat down across from me with a holstered firearm pointed at me I would change my seat.
I don't doubt that the probability of the firearm discharging by mechanical failure with the internal safeties is very small, I've said as much in other threads, and certainly less than the risk of a person firing an errant round. But it is a potential risk, even if very slight. And for me it's not a risk I feel I have to or is worth it to take. I fully acknowledge others feel differently. My point from the beginning was that dismissing someone pointing out that AIWB involves a firearm pointed at a critical area of your body is to me unfair.
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Theohazard
New member
Fair enough. I think we don’t really disagree all that much, we’re just each taking a slightly different position on a spectrum.
You can use an AIWB holster at other positions. Depending on the design of the holster some of those holsters may not be as comfortable as other IWB holsters, but a concealment wing for example could still be of benefit at other positions. I'm not sure how well the angled wedges work at other positions as I've never had a holster with one.
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HighValleyRanch
New member
I've made leather IWB holsters for myself as well as friends. For 3-4 o'clock position, the FBI cant or more seems to work better to hide the grip. Where as the AIWB, the straight drop seems to hide the grip better, keeping it parallel to the belt line.
Then there is a trade off to concealment vs. draw, because the lower position to the belt hides better, but is harder to get an initial master grip. The higher position one can get a master grip immediately, but might print a little more.
This seems to be true for both AIWB and strong side carry.
Then there is a trade off to concealment vs. draw, because the lower position to the belt hides better, but is harder to get an initial master grip. The higher position one can get a master grip immediately, but might print a little more.
This seems to be true for both AIWB and strong side carry.