.38 Special vs. .357 Magnum for Home Defense
- Thread starter Model12Win
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
Everyone knows that the .38 Special is so pathetic that it actually HEALS people who are shot with it.
The .357? It's so powerful that the person who is shot with it will be lucky enough to have DNA left.
Here's the truly useful concept in all of this...
You should use for home defense what you shoot best.
If that's a .22LR revolver, so be it.
"From reading the comments it seems the general concensus that the .357 magnum is going to be much more effective at stopping the threat, and the .38 special is pretty weak. Am I about right?"
No, not really. Choose a quality defensive ammunition, such as the Speer Gold Dot HP or Remington Golden Saber, and you're going to get the best of both worlds in either cartridge -- good expansion, good penetration.
People like to postulate about how much more important it is to have 100 or more extra foot pounds of energy blah blah blah blah blah.
Ludicrous rabbit splitting.
The .357? It's so powerful that the person who is shot with it will be lucky enough to have DNA left.
Here's the truly useful concept in all of this...
You should use for home defense what you shoot best.
If that's a .22LR revolver, so be it.
"From reading the comments it seems the general concensus that the .357 magnum is going to be much more effective at stopping the threat, and the .38 special is pretty weak. Am I about right?"
No, not really. Choose a quality defensive ammunition, such as the Speer Gold Dot HP or Remington Golden Saber, and you're going to get the best of both worlds in either cartridge -- good expansion, good penetration.
People like to postulate about how much more important it is to have 100 or more extra foot pounds of energy blah blah blah blah blah.
Ludicrous rabbit splitting.
Model12Win
Moderator
Correct.
I was basing my assumption after reading the detailed comments in the actual thread. I am more interested in that data point.
The .38 special is not weak
It is not as powerful as the .357, but lacks a lot of the complaints that people have with the .357.
The .38 is easy to shoot fast, accurately and keep on target. The only caveat is finding a quality defense load. There are plenty of those to choose from.
It is not as powerful as the .357, but lacks a lot of the complaints that people have with the .357.
The .38 is easy to shoot fast, accurately and keep on target. The only caveat is finding a quality defense load. There are plenty of those to choose from.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Everybody is going to shoot a light recoiling 22 fast and accurate so everbody should choose a 22."
Yep, everyone knows that EVERY handgun ever made has the exact same grip characteristics, and the ONLY factor is one of caliber-induced recoil!
Not sure how you read my original statement and arrived at an absolute like that.
"I know 100 works a lot better than 0"
Yeah, everyone knows that most .38s have zero foot pounds of energy, quite a few have NEGATIVE foot pounds of energy, and only a few select loadings can break the 5 foot pounds of energy level.
Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute, or are you just going parse my comments and do your absolute best at intentionally obfuscating them in the most useless fashion possible?
If that's all you're going to bring to the table, so sit at the kiddy table voluntarily, or you'll be seated there.
Yep, everyone knows that EVERY handgun ever made has the exact same grip characteristics, and the ONLY factor is one of caliber-induced recoil!
Not sure how you read my original statement and arrived at an absolute like that.
"I know 100 works a lot better than 0"
Yeah, everyone knows that most .38s have zero foot pounds of energy, quite a few have NEGATIVE foot pounds of energy, and only a few select loadings can break the 5 foot pounds of energy level.
Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute, or are you just going parse my comments and do your absolute best at intentionally obfuscating them in the most useless fashion possible?
If that's all you're going to bring to the table, so sit at the kiddy table voluntarily, or you'll be seated there.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"As usual, the answer will be different for different people."
There ya go.
Come sit at the big kids table and have some pie.
There ya go.
Come sit at the big kids table and have some pie.
LOL Well J 22s and J frame 357s take the exact same grip as do K frames and L frames by extension since they'll take any grip a K frame will, SP101 and GP100s will too and even with automatics there are 22 conversions for most of the popular ones.
So once the size, shape, sights and MOA of gun in question is determined then caliber induced recoil is the only thing left.
Besides in the context of this post any 357 will be easier to shoot with a light target 38 so by extension applying
"You should use for home defense what you shoot best."
light target 38s is the universal answer to "what load for my 357?"
You say an extra 100 means nada guess that's not universally true
Of course there are many 357 loadings that are more in the 250-300 range.
That was the 38 Long Colt round you are refering to. Poster #54 cleared that up to a large degree. The 38 long colt was loaded with a 150gr bullet at about 750fps from a 6" barrel. Just about what a mid range target wadcutter gets from the same 6" barrel. I would pick the target load over the colt load any day.
The army also had problems with the 45 colt and 30-40 Krag against the same people. Jack Lott wrote an article on this in the may 1989 Petersons Handguns titled "The 45 And The Moros A Myth Exploded". Maybe you can find a copy of the article to read.
The 38 Special round has benefited by so many new loadings to improve it that it is more suitable now for defense than any time in the past. I keep a model 15 loaded with 158gr FBI loads. Plus a couple of shotguns and a Mini-14 for home defense and don't feel undergunned at all.
And shooting a deer with a 38 snub is a stunt. And guess who is taking all the risk. How irresponsible.
Model12Win
Moderator
Yeah shooting a deer with a 158 round nose bullet... from a snubbie.. wasn't so cool LOL! 
I am reading one of Jim Cirillo's books called "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights" and in it he describes how two of his stakeout partners shot a felon 11 times with the same 158 gr. RNL load from snub nose revolvers.
They felon was ambulatory, able to speak, walked himself to an ambulance and survived. A couple of the rounds hit him in the head but skidded off his skull if I remember right.
After this, Cirillo used the example to point out the ineffectiveness of this "widow maker" load to the NYCPD brass.
I am reading one of Jim Cirillo's books called "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights" and in it he describes how two of his stakeout partners shot a felon 11 times with the same 158 gr. RNL load from snub nose revolvers.
They felon was ambulatory, able to speak, walked himself to an ambulance and survived. A couple of the rounds hit him in the head but skidded off his skull if I remember right.
After this, Cirillo used the example to point out the ineffectiveness of this "widow maker" load to the NYCPD brass.
Inside the house, at night or darkened conditions. I'll take the 38. Don't need a huge fireball and extremely loud concussion in a confined space.
Plus I can shoot the 38 special better. Only hits count misses, even with a 357 Magnum, will get you killed.
Now this is a real happening, not read in a book. My daughter intterupted an armed robbers plans to take the money and not leave any witnesses to testify, 1 shot from her J-frame , 38 special, Speer + P , 135 grain Gold Dot, hollow point, center chest, ended the matter right then and there....Hits Count.
Gary
Plus I can shoot the 38 special better. Only hits count misses, even with a 357 Magnum, will get you killed.
Now this is a real happening, not read in a book. My daughter intterupted an armed robbers plans to take the money and not leave any witnesses to testify, 1 shot from her J-frame , 38 special, Speer + P , 135 grain Gold Dot, hollow point, center chest, ended the matter right then and there....Hits Count.
Gary
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Mike Irwin
Staff
"The US Army also once used the 38 Special, until they realized it didn't work that well..."
The Army, as well as the Navy and the Air Force have all issued revolvers in .38 Special, as well, in rather huge quantities during World War II and after.
In the 1950s, during the Air Force's attempt to create an all-aluminum revolver (the Aircrewman) they found that the traditional load of 158-gr. bullet at about 750-800 fps was still too much for the aluminum cylinders on the M13 (as it was known), so a round with a 130-gr. hardball bullet between 750-800 fps was developed.
Even that round was too much for the aluminum cylinder, so the M13s were eventually destroyed (very few remain), but the Air Force continued to use that round in .38 revolvers it issued to pilots and aircrews through the Vietnam War, where it developed a rather unspectacular reputation...
The Army, as well as the Navy and the Air Force have all issued revolvers in .38 Special, as well, in rather huge quantities during World War II and after.
In the 1950s, during the Air Force's attempt to create an all-aluminum revolver (the Aircrewman) they found that the traditional load of 158-gr. bullet at about 750-800 fps was still too much for the aluminum cylinders on the M13 (as it was known), so a round with a 130-gr. hardball bullet between 750-800 fps was developed.
Even that round was too much for the aluminum cylinder, so the M13s were eventually destroyed (very few remain), but the Air Force continued to use that round in .38 revolvers it issued to pilots and aircrews through the Vietnam War, where it developed a rather unspectacular reputation...
Mike Irwin
Staff
All this talk about LRN and other forms of non-expanding .38 Special ammo is nice, but I'll point everyone back to this:
"Choose a quality defensive ammunition, such as the Speer Gold Dot HP or Remington Golden Saber, and you're going to get the best of both worlds in either cartridge -- good expansion, good penetration."
I said that in reference to .38 Special.
A few years ago I fired about a dozen 135-gr. Speer Gold Dots out of my 2" 042 into a water filled trashcan.
As best as I can determine penetration was 15 inches and expansion was flawless, and about a half inch.
Even the rounds that missed the water and dug into the dirt bank behind the can expanded rather well (but unevenly).
"Choose a quality defensive ammunition, such as the Speer Gold Dot HP or Remington Golden Saber, and you're going to get the best of both worlds in either cartridge -- good expansion, good penetration."
I said that in reference to .38 Special.
A few years ago I fired about a dozen 135-gr. Speer Gold Dots out of my 2" 042 into a water filled trashcan.
As best as I can determine penetration was 15 inches and expansion was flawless, and about a half inch.
Even the rounds that missed the water and dug into the dirt bank behind the can expanded rather well (but unevenly).
LOL!
I wanted to address the police ending their use of the .38, which had nothing to do with wanting a better round. They wanted high capacity magazines which was becoming the latest craze in 9mm mania back in the 80's and 90's. Initially, many departments were disappointed in the 9mm performance compared to the .38 because 9mm bullets mostly sucked back then. Though they did not abandon the .38 for a better round, most have since abandoned the 9mm for a better round.
Dirty_Harry
New member
Inside the home? .38+p.
Less muzzle flash and more controllable. At those distances the bad guy wont know the difference.
Less muzzle flash and more controllable. At those distances the bad guy wont know the difference.
2damnold4this
New member
It's a common error to confuse power with effectiveness. Power is only one consideration of effectiveness. The poll asks which cartridge to choose for home defense. Presumably, people will select the cartridge that is most effective for them.
I voted for .38 Spl and I'll tell you why. That is because that is what is at my bedside -- a 4" 686 loaded with .38 Spl +p 125 gr Gold Dots.
First, while the revolver is a .357 Mag, the .38 rounds have less recoil, less muzzle flash and isn't as loud. That means that it is easier on the eyes and ears, and quicker follow up shots.
Second, while we all know that .357 Mag is quite effective as a stopper, .38 Spl +p with premium bullets is as well. In either case, if you do your part, it'll do its part.
Third, it allows my wife to use my revolver in a pinch. She has rheumatoid arthritis and therefore has grip strength problems and is very sensitive to recoil.
Fourth, it means that I'm using the same ammo as my wife, who has a S&W model 15 on her side of the bed. Yeah, her revolver (a K frame) uses different speed loaders than mine (a L frame), but at least the ammo itself is compatible.
First, while the revolver is a .357 Mag, the .38 rounds have less recoil, less muzzle flash and isn't as loud. That means that it is easier on the eyes and ears, and quicker follow up shots.
Second, while we all know that .357 Mag is quite effective as a stopper, .38 Spl +p with premium bullets is as well. In either case, if you do your part, it'll do its part.
Third, it allows my wife to use my revolver in a pinch. She has rheumatoid arthritis and therefore has grip strength problems and is very sensitive to recoil.
Fourth, it means that I'm using the same ammo as my wife, who has a S&W model 15 on her side of the bed. Yeah, her revolver (a K frame) uses different speed loaders than mine (a L frame), but at least the ammo itself is compatible.
Doc Holliday 1950
New member
357 for HD?
I posed this question a few months ago. the pros all suggested that I go to the range and get a few boxes of 357 mags, different loads and 38 spec +P's. 110 gr and up to 135 grins. and shoot and practice and see which I was most comfortable handling. Great advice.
I my humble novice opinion, I now know with my 4" 357 mag revolver I can handle a 357 mag 125 grain load with accuracy and multiple shots. I also found that I can use 38 spec +P 110 to 135 grain loads even easier.
My novice advice is the same as I was told then, " practice practice practice using both 357's and 38 specials and that's the beauty of a 357 mag revolver. you have the choice of multiple ammo with multiple power. Also, if you live in close quarters to your neighbor then maybe you use use 38 spec +P's if you don't, then you have more choices.
I posed this question a few months ago. the pros all suggested that I go to the range and get a few boxes of 357 mags, different loads and 38 spec +P's. 110 gr and up to 135 grins. and shoot and practice and see which I was most comfortable handling. Great advice.
I my humble novice opinion, I now know with my 4" 357 mag revolver I can handle a 357 mag 125 grain load with accuracy and multiple shots. I also found that I can use 38 spec +P 110 to 135 grain loads even easier.
My novice advice is the same as I was told then, " practice practice practice using both 357's and 38 specials and that's the beauty of a 357 mag revolver. you have the choice of multiple ammo with multiple power. Also, if you live in close quarters to your neighbor then maybe you use use 38 spec +P's if you don't, then you have more choices.