.357 for bear
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Bear 45/70
Moderator
No Enough GUN! If you are an expert shot and can keep your cool when the bear gets ****** and charges and can do the CNS (Central nervous System) shot to sop him fine. But for us real people, 41 Mag and up with heavy bullets, 250 grains or heavier. My personal first choice bear handgun would be a BFR in 45/70 with 405 LFN bullets over about 40 grains of H-4198. I know that round will kill bears.
Bear 4570- I have a BFR 45-70 and used it for a Bison two years in a row and it took three shots both years. The two years prior my .300 win-mag dropped them with one.
I was using store bought rounds. I don't remember the load though.
I wonder what load you would have to use to drop the bear the first shot. Assuming good shot placement.?
I am a bit uneducated when it comes to what round for what. I usually try to get hotter and harder for most things. For everyday carry, I have no problem, I got trained in what kills people.
I was a bit surprised that my 45-70 took more than one shot placed in the lung. Same shot as the .300 win-mag.
More fun to shot the thing with the BFR though. I would still rather shoot it than any one of my rifles....
Mel
I was using store bought rounds. I don't remember the load though.
I wonder what load you would have to use to drop the bear the first shot. Assuming good shot placement.?
I am a bit uneducated when it comes to what round for what. I usually try to get hotter and harder for most things. For everyday carry, I have no problem, I got trained in what kills people.
I was a bit surprised that my 45-70 took more than one shot placed in the lung. Same shot as the .300 win-mag.
More fun to shot the thing with the BFR though. I would still rather shoot it than any one of my rifles....
Mel
Bear 45/70
Moderator
First: Shot placement is everything! I've seen a poor shooter take 3 rounds of 458 Win. Mag. to down an elk and I've seen a great shooter drop an elk with one round from a lowly 30-30. Don't blame the equipment.
Second: Store bought rounds are all at "Trapdoor" levels and not up to hunting unless used in a long barreled rifle. Buy your rounds from Buffalo Bore or Randy Garrett. They will get the job done, even in your handgun. At least my hand loads do the job out of my Contender.
Second: Store bought rounds are all at "Trapdoor" levels and not up to hunting unless used in a long barreled rifle. Buy your rounds from Buffalo Bore or Randy Garrett. They will get the job done, even in your handgun. At least my hand loads do the job out of my Contender.
Having lived in AK for some time, my son still there, residents of most cities like Anchorage, Palmer and Fairbanks are not armed each time. My old buddy, a trooper, brown shirt, always said to not get a shotgun with slugs. Soft and not as effective as shot, he used 4 buckshot on his bear adventures. Yeah, leave the .357 at home...
Stevie-Ray
New member
.357?
Wow, I reserve 10mm to protect me in a pinch from the small (~500#) black bears of the wilds of Michigan. Kodiaks, though? I always said I'd sooner have my SAR-48 with at least 2 full 20 rd mags, minimum. I've gotten far too used to the idea of having a full skin. But I'd defer the real advice to AZAK and the other guys that actually live there; I doubt they'll steer you wrong.
Wow, I reserve 10mm to protect me in a pinch from the small (~500#) black bears of the wilds of Michigan. Kodiaks, though? I always said I'd sooner have my SAR-48 with at least 2 full 20 rd mags, minimum. I've gotten far too used to the idea of having a full skin. But I'd defer the real advice to AZAK and the other guys that actually live there; I doubt they'll steer you wrong.
There is no sbstitute for having a good head on your shoulders. Just follow smart practices when out in the bush and educate yourself on why bears attack. I'm not going to go into detail, but you can find a lot of information on the internet. I personally carry bear spray along with a Ruger Alaskan .454 Casull (325 grain HC rounds) which I practice with quite a bit. I will only use the pistol if I am being charged. Some experts say that firing a round into the dirt in front of a charging brownie will sometimes cause it to turn and run away. Proof of this can be witnessed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw
Bear spray may not take effect in time to halt a full blown charge and sometimes the wind is not to your advantage, but something is better than nothing. There are also theories that bear spray is not very effective on black bears because of a mucous layer they have over their eyes and in their nasal passages.
As for the caliber of weapon you will want to carry, there are many theories. I have always heard .44 mag or larger, nothing lighter than 300 gr HC rounds. You don't want an expanding round, you want bone breaking penetration. I have also heard that you should shoot the heaviest caliber that you are accurate with. This is sound advice within reason.
Keep in mind that if you kill a brown bear in Alaska in defense of your life or property, you have to bring the skull and hide with proof of sex into game officials and explain what happened. They will then determine if it was a righteous kill. They will also keep the skull and hide, you don't get it back as a trophy. Oh, and if you wound a bear without killing it (i.e. it runs off), it is your responsibility to hunt it down and finish it off. If you decide to just leave a bear carcass or injured bear out in the bush and ADFG finds out, you will pay some stiff fines and possibly face jail time. There is nothing worse than an injured bear roaming around in the same area as humans.
Bear spray may not take effect in time to halt a full blown charge and sometimes the wind is not to your advantage, but something is better than nothing. There are also theories that bear spray is not very effective on black bears because of a mucous layer they have over their eyes and in their nasal passages.
As for the caliber of weapon you will want to carry, there are many theories. I have always heard .44 mag or larger, nothing lighter than 300 gr HC rounds. You don't want an expanding round, you want bone breaking penetration. I have also heard that you should shoot the heaviest caliber that you are accurate with. This is sound advice within reason.
Keep in mind that if you kill a brown bear in Alaska in defense of your life or property, you have to bring the skull and hide with proof of sex into game officials and explain what happened. They will then determine if it was a righteous kill. They will also keep the skull and hide, you don't get it back as a trophy. Oh, and if you wound a bear without killing it (i.e. it runs off), it is your responsibility to hunt it down and finish it off. If you decide to just leave a bear carcass or injured bear out in the bush and ADFG finds out, you will pay some stiff fines and possibly face jail time. There is nothing worse than an injured bear roaming around in the same area as humans.
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ArmedInNOR-CAL
New member
If your talking .357 Id go with 12 rounds of .357sig in golden sabre or something equaly ugly otherwise get a damn .460 and put the bears head out the back of his ass. I do a bit of bear hunting, and you either draw and handle the situation or freeze and **** yourself. Trying to reach around your back and fumble with a 12 gauge is probably not gonna be as quick as shooting from the hip. A brown bear will close the gap between you and him faster than you can blink. If you have ever seen a bear come out of a tree you would understand they dont wait for anything.
"What do you tell the DNR officer when he comes around, wont it look alot like poaching?? I mean, most people here are against open carry, and those who do know that it is not iliegal in alot of states , would up having the police called for a man with a gun..."
Mordis, most Alaskans I knew when I grew up there would openly carry either a rifle, shotgun, or big revolver when outside town. It's not just legal to carry openly or concealed up there, but concerned locals will also ask where your gun is if they see that you are venturing outdoors unarmed. OC is not a problem. If a Fish & Game officer sees you with a deer carcass out of season, though, you will be in trouble. It's not the gun that matters. It's what you do with it.
I don't know about OC/CC tolerance elsewhere, though.
(Warning, opinions following.)
Someone recommended loading a shotgun with shot as opposed to slugs. I disagree 100%! If a "soft" slug lacks penetrating power, then shot will certainly do worse. Shotguns loaded with shot are fine for ducks & humans, but not bears - they are tough enought that there isn't much chance of a shot pellet reaching & damaging an important organ that will stop an attack immediately. But, the bear might die of bleeding or infection hours or weeks later. 12-ga magnum slugs are probably a better defensive load for bears. Or a high-powered rifle.
Someone else recommended hollowpoints in a handgun round. It *might* work, if the bear has you pinned and you shove the barrel against its chest. If it's charging, though, what you'd see are a wedge-shaped head and the forequarters. That head can deflect small calibers - I've seen skulls that have healed-over gunshot wounds. (There's one on display in Ketchikan's Fish & Game office, I think, that they named "Ol' Groaner".) A bullet fired from any handgun caliber will do nothing but poke a hole in a bear, and you need that hole to either penetrate the skull to reach the CNS, or at least break a legbone & hopefully stop the charge. Heavy hardcast bullets with a wide meplat will have a much better chance of doing this than a hollowpoint.
These "guns vs. bears" threads always make me concerned.
A handgun has its place - a sidearm that will always be with you, something that you can use one-handed if need be. But it's better to use avoidance (cook away from camp, steer clear of kill piles, etc.), alertness, teamwork, a rifle, or bear spray first IMHO.
Mordis, most Alaskans I knew when I grew up there would openly carry either a rifle, shotgun, or big revolver when outside town. It's not just legal to carry openly or concealed up there, but concerned locals will also ask where your gun is if they see that you are venturing outdoors unarmed. OC is not a problem. If a Fish & Game officer sees you with a deer carcass out of season, though, you will be in trouble. It's not the gun that matters. It's what you do with it.
I don't know about OC/CC tolerance elsewhere, though.
(Warning, opinions following.)
Someone recommended loading a shotgun with shot as opposed to slugs. I disagree 100%! If a "soft" slug lacks penetrating power, then shot will certainly do worse. Shotguns loaded with shot are fine for ducks & humans, but not bears - they are tough enought that there isn't much chance of a shot pellet reaching & damaging an important organ that will stop an attack immediately. But, the bear might die of bleeding or infection hours or weeks later. 12-ga magnum slugs are probably a better defensive load for bears. Or a high-powered rifle.
Someone else recommended hollowpoints in a handgun round. It *might* work, if the bear has you pinned and you shove the barrel against its chest. If it's charging, though, what you'd see are a wedge-shaped head and the forequarters. That head can deflect small calibers - I've seen skulls that have healed-over gunshot wounds. (There's one on display in Ketchikan's Fish & Game office, I think, that they named "Ol' Groaner".) A bullet fired from any handgun caliber will do nothing but poke a hole in a bear, and you need that hole to either penetrate the skull to reach the CNS, or at least break a legbone & hopefully stop the charge. Heavy hardcast bullets with a wide meplat will have a much better chance of doing this than a hollowpoint.
These "guns vs. bears" threads always make me concerned.
A handgun has its place - a sidearm that will always be with you, something that you can use one-handed if need be. But it's better to use avoidance (cook away from camp, steer clear of kill piles, etc.), alertness, teamwork, a rifle, or bear spray first IMHO.+1
I think this topic has been hashed over pretty well. As much good advice as has been given, it's up to each to make their own decisions. I have great trouble shooting a .44mag accurately one handed. Anyone that carries bear spray needs to be well practiced shooting one handed IMO. When I see a bear, I pull out my spray and my 10mm simultaneously, if the spray doesn't stop him (it does in just about all the documented cases I've read) the 10mm is there only as a backup. I hope I never have to shoot a bear in self-defense. That being said; I will if I have to.
1. Prepare your plan for dealing with the threat (be sure it's an extremely flexible plan. Keep Murphy's Law in mind!!!)
2. Decide on the gear you will need
3. Practice with said gear
4. Practice some more
5. Always take a buddy who carries
6. PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR SURROUNDINGS AT ALL TIMES!!!
7. Enjoy the outdoors. There are sights I've seen that I would have never had the chance to see if I stayed at the house b/c I was too scared of the variables.
Of course there are better options out there. I am currently looking for a Ruger Redhawk 4" in .44 magnum. Unfortunately, I can't find one and I can't afford it right now. So I also carry a .357 magnum into the woods. I load it with Hornady's LeveRevolution .357 magnum Flex Tip ammo. I feel this is among the most powerful loads available. Aim neck or head and don't stop until he drops. The best info I have come across yet. If you have a .44, go with that though.
Like to see the reference behind that. While it "may not" and "sometimes", so far it "always has worked as advertised" up here in Alaska.
Again I refer people to this article in the Anchorage Daily News, and it does address both of the above concerns:
www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/381252.html
Hey, I like guns as much as the next guy/gal on this forum, maybe even more (insert smiley face here if it helps); however, let's look at the numbers not just the fact that we all want a new/bigger gun.
And really almost all hand guns are defensive weapons designed with two legged threats in mind. I am a big guy, but standing next to a big griz I would be looking at about his shoulders if he were on all fours, and at about the belly button if standing on two; not to mention that he could outweigh me about four to one, or more. Now think about the fact that he/she can easily literally "knock your block off" with one swipe of a paw.
When hunting, a very different scenario than being charged, most hunters use a large caliber magnum rifle to hunt bear up here; including me. Here is a situation where you usually have the element of surprise and some distance between you and a bear. Now think charge, no surprise and very little distance; coupled with the fact that bears can travel at 40 mph. Hunted bears can take some time to die, even when their hearts are blown out by a magnum hunting rifle.
Now do you really want to try shooting a 1000 lbs, 40 mph, knock your head off easier than you can sneeze, twice as tall as you, four times your weight, omnivore who would eat you happily, and frequently "pops" out of the brush less than a second of two away from you (My closest none hunting encounter was at about four feet.) with a hand gun?
As to the really big hand gun cartridges, check out the ballistics between them and large caliber magnum hunting rifles. (And remember that even bears with blown out hearts still have enough left in them to "knock your block off", and have essentially done just that on occasion before dying.)
I will play the under $50 97% - 100% odds of the bear spray, and come up with better reasons for buying a new gun. (And actually have been known to carry two cans at a time when I am really out in the bush. It must be really unsettling to hike out after emptying your one can, I have read accounts/articles stating just that.) My guns are a back up to the spray. I have carried just like jgcoastie with a Glock in 10mm for one hand and the spray for the other.
If you want a decent education on Alaska bear encounters, read Larry Kaniut's non fiction Alaska Bear Tales; or one of his other works, he has several on the subject.
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Speed_Racer
Inactive
I support AZAK's post 110%. We love finding new reasons to buy things. The threat of a bear is a great reason to buy some hand-cannon that doesn't fit a need in suburban life.
But more than that, we like the idea of being "good" enough to take out a bear with a handgun. We glorify the idea of being threatened by a giant, vicious, predator and saying "Yeah Steve, he charged me, I drew my Glock 30, which is the best handgun ever in the universe, Steve, and took him down.
It would make an amazing story, but I think listening to the guys that live there and face this problem is the only choice to make. Read the articles, listen to the people in the know, and keep your life safe. Don't become an obituary while seeking a legendary tale.
But more than that, we like the idea of being "good" enough to take out a bear with a handgun. We glorify the idea of being threatened by a giant, vicious, predator and saying "Yeah Steve, he charged me, I drew my Glock 30, which is the best handgun ever in the universe, Steve, and took him down.
It would make an amazing story, but I think listening to the guys that live there and face this problem is the only choice to make. Read the articles, listen to the people in the know, and keep your life safe. Don't become an obituary while seeking a legendary tale.
Deterrent
Okay - original poster - asked if it was a deterrent.
Well..... I'd be a lot happier with the .357 hot loads as a deterrent than carrying a can of any kind of spray.
If you're fly fishing, I am going to guess that the 12 gauge that was suggested would be on shore somewhere with other stuff - oh, like maybe already caught fish, bait, and snacks... which might put you in an awkward spot when you want to GET that shotgun without reaching over/past/under the bear. So - my guess is you're looking for something you'd have ON your person, and that you're smart enough to just throw fish at the bear if it's curious, just to see if that'll satisfy it.
So, I'd carry the .357 in a holster unless I could borrow a .44 Mag. Chances are you won't need to shoot, and a .357 would deter most bears. Don't think that means I'm saying a .357 is a great bear killer or that I'd hunt with one. I'm just not sure I'd buy a .44 just for a fishing trip unless I had more cash than I do today. Now, if you need an excuse to buy the .44, it's a great chance.....
Okay - original poster - asked if it was a deterrent.
Well..... I'd be a lot happier with the .357 hot loads as a deterrent than carrying a can of any kind of spray.
If you're fly fishing, I am going to guess that the 12 gauge that was suggested would be on shore somewhere with other stuff - oh, like maybe already caught fish, bait, and snacks... which might put you in an awkward spot when you want to GET that shotgun without reaching over/past/under the bear. So - my guess is you're looking for something you'd have ON your person, and that you're smart enough to just throw fish at the bear if it's curious, just to see if that'll satisfy it.
So, I'd carry the .357 in a holster unless I could borrow a .44 Mag. Chances are you won't need to shoot, and a .357 would deter most bears. Don't think that means I'm saying a .357 is a great bear killer or that I'd hunt with one. I'm just not sure I'd buy a .44 just for a fishing trip unless I had more cash than I do today. Now, if you need an excuse to buy the .44, it's a great chance.....
I must say that there are no absolutes when it comes to bears. The one in this article was mauling a lady, but was scared off by the sound of the hissing from a can of bear spray. This article actually made me laugh. You will see why when you read it.
http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/510759.html
One guy up near Talkeetna stopped a mauling with a .220 Swift with 3 shots to the head.
http://dwb.adn.com/news/alaska/wildlife/bears/attacks/story/8803434p-8704592c.html
This guy used ski poles to fend off a charging sow.
http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/439737.html
My advice is to take what you are comfortable with. I will personally carry bear spray and a pistol. I'm even considering investing in a bear fence for camp.
http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/510759.html
One guy up near Talkeetna stopped a mauling with a .220 Swift with 3 shots to the head.
http://dwb.adn.com/news/alaska/wildlife/bears/attacks/story/8803434p-8704592c.html
This guy used ski poles to fend off a charging sow.
http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/439737.html
My advice is to take what you are comfortable with. I will personally carry bear spray and a pistol. I'm even considering investing in a bear fence for camp.
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Bear fence? Now I've heard it all...
I don't think a bear fence would be very effective.
1. Bears ignore fences. Example: I live on a fenced (8') military base in Kodiak; in the spring/summer, it is no surprise to see bears on base or to find claw marks on dumpsters.
2. If you still wanted a fence, for it to be big enough to deter a bear, you'd have to pack it in on back or 4-wheeler. Neither of which sounds exciting due to weight concerns.
3. If you're smart in how you camp (cook at a separate fire away from camp, either hang from a tree, bury, or burn all leftover food and trash away from camp, etc) you won't have to worry.
4. You're better off with the spray and gun. If you're real worried, keep a 'guide gun' in something like 45/70, .444, .450 close by at camp.
Here's the link. I'm wasn't talking about hauling in a chain link fence. I think this would be good for week long rafting trips where you will have more gear.
http://www.udap.com/bearshock.htm
http://www.udap.com/bearshock.htm
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