BC does not change with velocity. Velocity is entirely irelevant. BC is determined from SD and FF. Range is determined by velocity and BC. You still aren't getting it. A 180gr. 44M is the same exact bullet as a 125gr. 357M. If you are good with physics you will note that mass is not weight. Weight can be determined to gather momentum and energy but does not mean anything regarding this topic. All the extra weight of the 44M with the same SD as a 357M does is allow it travel the same distance due to its higher wind resistance. The 357M wasn't on the page but the 9mm was only 100 yards short of the 44M. If you don't think the 357M can travel more at least 100 yards than a 9mm then you're lost. The important the actual weight of the project means absolutely nothing regarding this topic.
.357 and .44
- Thread starter Bonstrosity
- Start date
BC does not change with velocity. Velocity is entirely irelevant. BC is determined from SD and FF. Range is determined by velocity and BC. You still aren't getting it. A 180gr. 44M is the same exact bullet as a 125gr. 357M. If you are good with physics you will note that mass is not weight. Weight can be determined to gather momentum and energy but does not mean anything regarding this topic. All the extra weight of the 44M with the same SD as a 357M does is allow it travel the same distance due to its higher wind resistance. The 357M wasn't on the page but the 9mm was only 100 yards short of the 44M. If you don't think the 357M can travel more at least 100 yards than a 9mm then you're lost. The important the actual weight of the project means absolutely nothing regarding this topic.
That was my point, I just remembered you tried to convince me once that .45 penetrates as much as 9mm…which might be true only if HPs are used for both calibres. But never mind this is OT…
Oh yes it does, the reason why BC changes with velocity is because as you mentioned BC is determined by SD and Form Factor (which is pretty much about air resistance). And the faster the bullet goes the more resistance it gets. As you probably know the larger the BC the better the bullet will maintain the velocity, and therefore travel further.
For example BC for a 124gr 9mm FMJ bullet with SD of 0.142 is going to be 0.180 if velocity is under 1000fps, for 1000-1200fps BC is .160, and for over 1200fps BC is only .115. As you can see as the velocity goes up, the BC goes down, no free lunch here either
. Don’t believe me? Fine here: http://www.sierrabullets.com/software/updates/BallisticCoefficient-handgun.pdf#search='ballistic%20coefficient%20of%20handgun%20bullets'
BC is not affected by velocity. BC is a calculation based on SD and FF, with FF being the shape of the bullet. Simply put two projectiles with the same BC and velocity will have the same range and trajectory. It's that simple, where is the argument? From a pure theoretical standpoint, both cartridges have the same penetration and range potential. From a commercially available ammo standpoint, the edge goes to the 44M in both of these areas. That isn't the 357M's fault at all. They have the same case length, so therefore they can launch similar projectiles at similar velocities. As far as the 45 and 9mm, are you saying that they don't offer similar penetration or at least have the same penetration potential? We all know that standard 45ACP loads are severely watered down and that even standard pressure 45ACP loads can make more energy than +p 9mm loads. So what you are saying is that the 9mm is somehow superior to the 45ACP but the 357M is vastly inferior to the 44M. I totally don't understand what you are saying or where you stand. From what I've seen on your posts you seem to be very inconsistent and extremely biased towards your favorite cartridges.
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Did you see the link to Siera’s site? So are you saying that they just made it up? 
IMO it’s a common sense that the faster the bullet goes the more resistance it guts, and with more resistance the BC gets down…
IMO it’s a common sense that the faster the bullet goes the more resistance it guts, and with more resistance the BC gets down…Nope no argument there, I never disagreed with that. But SD in not BC!
yes I’m saying that with FMJ ammo 9mm is superior to .45 in penetration, I doubt you will disagree with that. As for standard .45 having more energy that 9mm +p that is not true. FYI Double Tap ammo is +p (not +p+) and it delivers 511ft-lbs with a 115gr bullet (from a Glock 17). I’m not aware of any standard .45 that can do that, most standard .45 is in the range of 320-420ft-lbs.
As I said I don’t want this to turn into 9mm vs .45, but I do think that 9mm is superior to .45 in a number of areas (capacity, penetration, follow up shot rate) but this OT…As for .357 vs. .44 you can’t just compare it to 9mm vs. .44 since they both have the same capacity and the power levels are not even close.
SD is the most important factor in BC so although not technically BC it is a large part of it. In general two bullets with the same bullet profile and sectional density going the same velocity will travel the same distance and decelerate at the same rate regardless of bullet weight or caliber. I should clarify about the velocity not affecting BC. I meant that in what we are comparing, it is not a factor nor relevant, since we are talking about cartridges pushing bullets of equivalent SD at equivalent velocities. From Sierra's chart, when you really start to see drastic changes in BC is almost at rifle velocities. But still it isn't a factor because once it decelerates to the velocities that we are speaking of the BC is going to be the same anyway. Something sounds fishy because at lower velocities their BC ratios are also down.
Tell me something, how can a 9mm be more effective at penetrating vs a 45ACP only in FMJ but not in HP? That doesn't make any sense. To get a sense of how much a bullet will penetrate, just multiply SD X velocity. That will give you a good idea.
It is totally true. DT's 45ACP loads are standard pressure not even +p and one of their loads is over 600ft/lbs of energy, while still being standard pressure. So its true you can make a 45ACP standard pressure load that has more energy than +p and +p+ 9mm loads. There is actually more of a difference of terminal effectiveness between the 45ACP and 9mm than the 44M vs the 357M as there is almost an entire .10 difference between the 9mm and 45 where as there is only about .07 difference in caliber between 357M and 44M. Like I said, 45ACP loads are very watered down. The standard military load was only pushing a little over 20K psi whereas the 9mm is pushing about 35K.
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Ruger KGP-141
I fire the 347 magnum with a 4 inch barrel using 357's. Big bang. Big flash. In fact I can not imagine that flash on a 2 1/4 barrel but perhaps some day I will find out. I used to fire 38's out of the 357 revolver while I was first starting to shoot. As far as I am concerned that is all the 38 round is good for. New shooters so we don't flinch as much. IMHO, 357's should go into a 357. I was thinking about firing a 44 mag with a six inch barrel one of these days but I don't know if I will. Not really necessary. We'll see. Anyway when people fire that 44 mag, that is one of the loudest guns I have heard. Now I know why they call it a Hand Cannon.
I fire the 347 magnum with a 4 inch barrel using 357's. Big bang. Big flash. In fact I can not imagine that flash on a 2 1/4 barrel but perhaps some day I will find out. I used to fire 38's out of the 357 revolver while I was first starting to shoot. As far as I am concerned that is all the 38 round is good for. New shooters so we don't flinch as much. IMHO, 357's should go into a 357. I was thinking about firing a 44 mag with a six inch barrel one of these days but I don't know if I will. Not really necessary. We'll see. Anyway when people fire that 44 mag, that is one of the loudest guns I have heard. Now I know why they call it a Hand Cannon.
It makes total sense; as the bullet expends the FF changes therefore BC changes as well. 9mm travels at faster velocities and expands relatively more than .45acp.For example 9mm can open up to .65 while .45 is ’only’ till .7, as you can see 9mm expands over 80% but .45 about 50%)
According to who? Last I heard 45ACPs are expanding to .75 and even over .80 with some expanding to even over .90. A 9mm HP that expands to .65 is definitely one of the better performing loads as most tend to expand between .58-.62. A 45ACP that only expands to .70 would be considered a poor and outdated design. Your argument might have held true maybe 20yrs ago, but not today.
To jump in on BC...
As far as I know, there are two methods of calculating BC. One has to do with a computer model of a bullet's shape, the SD and Form Factor. The other means I am aware of to commonly evaluate BC is to run starts and stops with chronographs at known distances (say 15 feet from muzzle and at 100 yards). With BC decreasing at higher speeds, it is simply because the faster we accelerate an object, the greater the drag. Though I agree I tend not to be concerned with BC at handgun ranges and velocities.
Now as for the .44 vs .357 argument, I will always vote for the .357 for a non-reloader or somebody who is interested in a CCW and a .44 for the reloader or an individual who wants the emphasis on hunting. My 629 loaded with .44 Specials would be a fine bedside gun, and stoked with 300gr Hardcasts there is nothing in New England I wouldn't feel comfortable chasing. I honestly can't say the same in my comfort with the .357 (and I have fired a few, just never personally owned one). And yes, I can place my rounds as accurately with a full-snort .44 as with a full-snort .357, at least on the range and for the first 20-30 rounds.
As far as I know, there are two methods of calculating BC. One has to do with a computer model of a bullet's shape, the SD and Form Factor. The other means I am aware of to commonly evaluate BC is to run starts and stops with chronographs at known distances (say 15 feet from muzzle and at 100 yards). With BC decreasing at higher speeds, it is simply because the faster we accelerate an object, the greater the drag. Though I agree I tend not to be concerned with BC at handgun ranges and velocities.
Now as for the .44 vs .357 argument, I will always vote for the .357 for a non-reloader or somebody who is interested in a CCW and a .44 for the reloader or an individual who wants the emphasis on hunting. My 629 loaded with .44 Specials would be a fine bedside gun, and stoked with 300gr Hardcasts there is nothing in New England I wouldn't feel comfortable chasing. I honestly can't say the same in my comfort with the .357 (and I have fired a few, just never personally owned one). And yes, I can place my rounds as accurately with a full-snort .44 as with a full-snort .357, at least on the range and for the first 20-30 rounds.
azredhawk44
Moderator
Guys, the 9mm vs .45acp metaphor doesn't work here. Speed and SD is so different... It's like comparing speedboats and tugboats.
Maybe .357sig vs .45winmag would work. But we never started doing that.
IM_Lugger, the thread started asking for advice on .357 vs .44. The guy wants a wheelgun.
Auto cartridges just can't compare to magnum revolver cartridges. There isn't enough room to hold powder and a long enough bullet to build SD to be equal to a magnum revolver cartridge. The only contenders are the Desert Eagle and LAR Grizzly (chambered in... .357, .44 and .50ae for the DE and .357, .44 and .45winmag for the LAR). Those grips are so huge that they limit the shooters that can hold them.
The common, watered-down 9mm or .45acp simply don't have the SD and velocity to compare to either of these premium hunting and silhouette shooting cartridges.
Furthermore, due to the excessive noise over 9vs45 on this forum, we all know that they both are rather close to one another in energy. The .357 and the .44 really only share velocity and SD, not energy numbers. We all know that the exotic .357 loads can verge on 800+ fpe and the .44 loads can verge on 1600+ fpe.
Keep the auto cartridges out of the revolver forum
Maybe .357sig vs .45winmag would work. But we never started doing that.
IM_Lugger, the thread started asking for advice on .357 vs .44. The guy wants a wheelgun.
Auto cartridges just can't compare to magnum revolver cartridges. There isn't enough room to hold powder and a long enough bullet to build SD to be equal to a magnum revolver cartridge. The only contenders are the Desert Eagle and LAR Grizzly (chambered in... .357, .44 and .50ae for the DE and .357, .44 and .45winmag for the LAR). Those grips are so huge that they limit the shooters that can hold them.
The common, watered-down 9mm or .45acp simply don't have the SD and velocity to compare to either of these premium hunting and silhouette shooting cartridges.
Furthermore, due to the excessive noise over 9vs45 on this forum, we all know that they both are rather close to one another in energy. The .357 and the .44 really only share velocity and SD, not energy numbers. We all know that the exotic .357 loads can verge on 800+ fpe and the .44 loads can verge on 1600+ fpe.
Keep the auto cartridges out of the revolver forum
If you shoot a 44 mag such as a Smith mountain gun with a short barrel you know you are shooting a magnum. My 10.5" SBH and 7.5" SRH are a charm to shoot even with hot 300 grain loads. Is there really a load for 44 mag that will surpass 1200 ft per lbs of muzzle energy? I want to know where I can get some of these or coor some up. josh
Yep
actually 1200ft-lb is nothing, Buffalo Bore makes .44 +p+ that delivers over 1650ft-lbs, they also make regular .44 loads that delivers 1200ft-lbs. Double Tap makes .44 ammo in that range as well. I reload and regularly shoot ammo in 1000-1300 ft-lbs range
...This is fairly simple actually. The reason why BC is lover at lover velocities is because the conical bullet is more stable at velocities over 800-900 fps. Lets look at airguns for a minute; pellets don’t look the same as bullets (pined in the middle -Diabolo design) the reason for it is airguns don’t shoot at very high velocities and therefore regular bullet design wouldn’t be stable, the pellets skirt works like a parachute;it keeps the pellet straight on it’s path. There are bullet like pellets but they only work well in hi velocity airguns.
+1 on that. I don't know if anybody is trying to compare the 357M and 44M as far as terminal effectiveness goes. I just think that some people are over-looking some obvious physics facts that the 357M can have the same penetration and range with some loads. The 357M will never have the same effectiveness on game though. I've seen that difference with my own eyes. In general, you always have to walk another 50yds when shooting something with a 357M vs a 44M. I never said that they are the same just that if two projectiles have similar SD and similar velocities they will have similar penetration and trajectories. Thats all. Nobody has been able to prove otherwise. The 44M is superior but I wouldn't say its twice as superior, like some people say. The bottom line is the 357M has dropped every game animal that I've shot with it and it has taken every game animal in North America. The 44M takes them easier though.
BC is a measure of how fast a bullet will decelerate not how stable it is in travel. How can a bullet declerate less at velocities around 1200fps than at 900fps? So are you telling me that bullets decelerate faster when below 900fps than at 1200fps. Thats a new one for me. A 147gr. 9mm bullet only loses about 100fps out to 100yards. A heavier and faster 357M bullet is going to lose probably 200fps.
It doesn't matter what shape the bullet nose has, it will decrease in velocity faster at higher speed than at lower velocities, but the faster bullet will still be faster and flatter. Start comparing apples to apples and it will an easier subject to study, unless you guys just like the correspondence for the sake of killing time. josh
BC is indicator of how well a projectile behaves in the air (which is not exactly what you said) If it’s not stable (i.e. wobbles) it faces more resistance (I already explained this it with airguns example) and therefore slows down faster.
SD is not the sam ething as BC (is it part of it of course). Here’s a proof for you;
From Hornady 2005 catalogue (SD/BC )
9mm 115gr -(.130/.129) 124gr-(.141/.165) 147gr-(167/.212) 9mm has the same SD, but BC is higher because of the Form Factor
.45 185gr- (.130/.139) 200gr-(.140/.151) 230gr-(.162/.188)
.357mag 140gr-(.157/.169) 180gr-(.202/.230)
.44 mag 200gr-(.155/.170) 300gr-(.232/.245) OK 300gr has a higher SD, but that doesn’t matter since it will still have the same velocity as 180gr .357 which also has lower BC, and therefore shorter range.