.357 and .44

The further the bullet will go the slower it will become and heavier bullet will be able to retain the velocity than a lighter one esp. at farther distances. Not Sure if I believe the ballistics data for that website, but even if it is true that .357 and .44 have the same trajectory at up to 100m doesn’t necessary mean that that's going to be the case at say 1000m, in fact I’m sure it won’t. I can’t think of a situation where .357 would go farther even if you take a light .44 bullet like 180gr; it would have pretty high muzzle velocity (reload for .44 and know it is within the safe limit to push a 180gr bullet to almost 1900fps) Now a 180gr .357 will travel a LOT slower and I really doubt will go as far, a lighter bullet like 125gr will travel faster (still less than 1900fps for sure) but because of the low weight won’t make it that much further than 180gr either (if even).

I posted a table some time ago scanned for a book that showed a max range for bullet path/trajectory and .44 had a longer range than .357 but not by that far.
 
The further the bullet will go the slower it will become and heavier bullet will be able to retain the velocity than a lighter one esp. at farther distances.
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Not if that heavier bullet is facing more air resistance. That holds true within the same caliber, but not when comparing to completely different calibers.

Like I said, it all depends on the load being compared. I think you are a little confused about bullet weights though. Bullet weight in itself doesn't mean anything. It's all about bullet weight in relation to the caliber. A 180gr. 357M faces much less air resistance than a 180gr. 44M load. It is totally safe to launch a 125gr. at the velocities you listed for the 180gr. 44M load. They will travel similar distances as well. 180gr. is light for 44M and 125gr. is light for 357M. It's all about bullet momentum in relation to the surface area of the bullet. A smaller diameter requires less momentum to keep it going. A bigger diameter requires more momentum to keep it going. I can totally understand you reading that information in charts or in a book, but like I said its much too complex an issue to say that one caliber travels farther than another. Most 357M aren't really powered up to the N-Frame S&W levels so that is totally understandable. A hot or real 357M load does have quite a bit of range.
 
The .44 magnum has "balls out" power; load it with .44 specials, and it is very shootable and controllable, especially in a 4" gun.

I have both .44 magnum and .357 magnum revolvers. For defensive use, I go with the .44 loaded with CorBon .44 special HPs when I'm not carrying a .45 auto of some type.
 
No I’m not confused, I know that larger bullet faces more air resistance/drag I did post this earlier;
there are a number of factors that can effect the velocity at longer ranges like bullet design; HP will slow down a bit faster than a round nose or flat point. Also a bullet with a smaller diameter will have an advantage
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I'm not saing that .44 will go a mile farther but I do think it will still be somewhat farther than .357 dispite the larger diameter.

I don’t load .357mag, but 125gr bullet at 1900fps makes 1000ft-lbs of energy and I really think that is pushing it (definitely not a safe load!); heavy Buffalo Bore loads are only 800ft-lbs; 1700fps with 125gr from 6in barrel.
 
I unfortunately listened to armchair warriors and shied away from the .44 for almost thirty years. My best friend gave me one about three years ago before he died, and I fell so in love with the .44's performance that I have sold most of the eleven 38/357's I owned. The 44spc ballistically matches almost identically the 45acp. Take a look at the tables. The 44mag rounds don't kick like most of the people who've never actually shot one say they do. In fact, my perception is that it doesn't kick as hard as the 357mag. Of course, you can hunt and shop or reload a ferocious round that's gonna kick the crud out of you, but for there are exceptions to everything. Off the shelf ammo... the 357 makes my hand go numb and the 44mag doesn't. A good 44spcl round is all you need for most applications and it just gives you a nice whump. Find a way to try them both and see for yourself. Don't take anyone's advice on what to get, including mine. Figure out a way and make your own choice.
 
I'm not saing that .44 will go a mile farther but I do think it will still be somewhat farther than .357 dispite the larger diameter.
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Show me any scientific or physics logic that supports your opinion. The article states the same thing that I was saying. Heavy for caliber loads from 357M and 44M loaded to similar velocities will have similar trajectories, just that the 44M definitely has more punch and better chance of actually killing an animal at really long distances. I'm not denying that. Like I said it depends on the loads being compared. How can you possibly narrow it down so simply to say that one caliber will travel further. Remember that a 180gr. 44Mag bullet is the ballistic equivalent as a 125gr. 357M load. So if a 180gr. 44Mag load is loaded to the same velocity as a 125gr. 357M load, guess what they are going to travel the same exact distance. Its really quite simple. The bullets have the same exact amount of mass behind them pushing them forward. The 44Mag is heavier but its also wider. The bullet for all practical purposes is the same though. Using W296 you can get 1800fps from a 6" with a 125gr. bullet from a 357M and that is still producing standard 357Mag pressures. Actually only about 33-34K. 1900fps from a 180gr. 44Mag is also pushing it.

I still don't think you have the whole concept down. The case lengths for the 44M and 357M are exactly the same so they push equivalent bullets (caliber wise) to similar velocities. In other words 180gr. 44M loads can be pushed to similar velocities as 125gr. 357M loads. 300gr. 44Mag loads can be pushed to similar velocities as 180-200gr. 357M loads. If BB's 180gr. load does 1500fps from a 6" barrel, don't you think a light 125gr load can be pushed quite a bit more than that? The 125gr. load is designed for self defense, I believe they can easily push them faster, but why? Any experienced reloader can get 1700-1800fps and even more from a 125gr. 357M load and a good strong gun, not a K-frame, which is what most modern 357Mag revolvers are.
 
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Here is an interesting thread from a few months ago that I think really relates to this topic. Basically penetration and trajectory is going to be equal between the 357M, 41M and 44M, just the bigger calibers, obviously put bigger holes in the target. That is it. This is of course providing that equivalent weight(for caliber) loads are being used at similar velocities. The case length is exactly the same so they are simply pushing a wider bullet at the same velocity, that is why the trajectories are the same because they have similar mass moving the projectile at the same velocities. Its that simple. When we think of weight, we need to think of weight as it relates to caliber, not as some independent factor.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1629500#post1629500
 
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I never said that they don’t have similar trajectories (that is what it says in your article). I said they’re not the same; which is not the same thing as similar, I believe .44 will go somewhat farther. Ok here’s the table I was talking about...[edit- the file doesn't seem to upload, I'll try again later]

Any experienced reloader can get 1700-1800fps from a 125gr. 357M load.
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what does it have to do with experience? There is a safe limit that should not be exceeded that is pretty much it. I just looked it up and yon can get 1966fps as max load with 125gr .357 BUT you need a 10in barrel.

I doubt it is that simple, there are three main factors; bullet weight, diameter and velocity. Even if velocities are the same at the muzzle that does NOT mean that they will stay the same at say 1000m or 1500m, since one has a larger diameter but other has smaller weight. You see it’s not really all that simple.
 
Sorry, 1800fps from a 125gr. 357M is easily accomplished from a 6+" barrel and that is still quite a bit below max pressure levels. The comment about experienced loaders was that new loaders should stick to lower power levels.

Are you telling me that a 180gr. 44M going the exact same velocity as a 125gr. 357M are going to have different trajectories? It's the same bullet for all practical purposes. They both have the same exact amount of mass behind them. The SD is .140 for both of them. That means the actual size of the bullet is the same, just one is wider. The three factors are Mass, Velocity and Diameter. These provide BC. Last time I checked the three cartridges in question have almost identical BC. Are you telling me that a 180gr. 44M load will keep its energy and momentum at distance as well as a 180gr. 357M bullet? The latter being pretty much identical to a 260gr. 44M bullet.
 
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It's the same bullet for all practical purposes. They both have the same exact amount of mass behind them. The SD is .140 for both of them. That means the actual size of the bullet is the same, just one is wider
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How are they same for all practical purposes, I don‘t get it? Also how are they the same if they have different width? They may have same length, but that that doesn’t mean much.

As for 180 .44 vs. 180 .357 it’s hard to say; .44 will be a LOT faster, but it does have a larger diameter. Although according to you (I haven’t look it up yet) they have the same BC, so that shouldn’t matter. ;)
 
They may have same length, but that that doesn’t mean much
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What? It means everything regarding this topic. The length of the bullet is its mass propelling the bullet forward. The longer bullets are also going to glide through the air better and stay on track. A 180gr. 44M is awfully stubby and it will be very susceptible to wind drift and will also lose its velocity very quickly. Its a tough one between the 180gr. 44M and 180gr. 357M. What? You gotta be kidding right.The 180gr. 357M is going to retain its velocity much better although starting off with a slower velocity. Somehow a 158gr. 357M @ 1240fps load has a longer MPBR than a 240gr. 44M going 1200fps, but its going to drop sooner according to you.:rolleyes: I've yet to figure out how that is going to happen.
 
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Actually I found some formulas on a site. BC is determined by SD x FF(profile of bullet). Maximum range is determined by MV x BC. So sectional density, what you said meant nothing, is actually the heart and soul of BC. Fired at a 45 degree angle a 30-06 does about 5,500 yards while the 357M and 44M do about 2400 yds. So apparently the actual weight of the bullet means absolutely nothing, its how much mass is behind the front surface of the projectile propelling it forward and the velocity that it is launched at. So basically a 180gr. 44M and 125gr. 357M if launched at the exact same velocity will have the same exact range. A 240gr. 44M and a 165gr. 357M load launched at the same exact velocity will have the same exact range. The 44M can launch a bullet with the same SD as a 357M at the same exact velocity. Resulting in different weight bullets that are actually technically the same. This is amazingly true. While 1500fps is pushing it for a 240gr. 44M so is the same velocity for a 158-165gr. 357M load.

This is actually amazingly simple. The other thread that I posted pretty much summed this up. While choosing bullets of similar SD between the 357M 41M and 44M they will go the same velocity and penetrate the same, all you are doing is choosing the size of the hole you are going to make. One important thing to remember is that mass is not weight.
 
I have to agree with cje1980.

Gravity is constant. Everything accelerates to the ground at 32ft/sec/sec IIRC. If you drop a .357 slug and a .44 slug that have equal wind resistance (Sectional Density), they will hit the ground at the same time.

If you run sideways at 10ft/sec and drop the bullets at the same time, both will travel 10ft/sec sideways as they fall at equal speed, hitting the ground at the same time.

If they both leave the gun barrel parallel to the ground at 1500fps and face the same decrease in velocity due to SD, they will land at the same time.

It's gravity, clear and simple.

I suspect that the .44 has more momentum than the .357 in some of the more exotic heavy bullets that exceed 300gr. I don't have a SD chart to compare a 355gr .44 slug to a 180gr .357 slug. Does anyone exceed either of these weights for either caliber? Those are the heaviest I can find loading data for.

This momentum is what gives penetration on large, thick-skinned or thick-boned game.

One guy here has a good tag line something like "The bugs on your windshield are proof that fast, light bullets don't work." It's true within reason. A bug at 100mph doesn't do near as much damage as a rock at 30mph. Sand blowing at you as you drive into it (total speed of 120mph) doesn't do anything.
 
cje1980 said:
While choosing bullets of similar SD between the 357M 41M and 44M they will go the same velocity and penetrate the same, all you are doing is choosing the size of the hole you are going to make.
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But, cje1980:

To shed velocity, a bullet must meet resistance.

Resistance translates into displaced tissue, trauma, and large wound channels in a target.

A .44 moving at the same speed with same sectional density will require much more resistance to stop.

This means more displaced tissue, more guts blown out, more lungs filled with fluid, more likely for a near-hit on COM to traumatize the heart...
 
A .44 moving at the same speed with same sectional density will require much more resistance to stop.
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You're right, but we should also consider that the 44M is going to face more resistance since it is a wider bullet. The 44M with the same sectional density also contains more weight with it. It turns out being exactly the same. Two bullets with identical SD and identical velocities will travel the same distance and penetrate identically. They will both meet the same resistance equally. The 44M with its wider surface area requires meets more resistance in both air and tissue but likewise for it to have equal SD it also has to have more weight. It cancels out. So basically to figure out how much a bullet will travel or penetrate, caliber isn't an issue, you just figure in SD and velocity. The 44M transmits more energy to target though because it has a bigger diameter and carrying more weight, thus having more KE.

This momentum is what gives penetration on large, thick-skinned or thick-boned game.
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Very good point, but its too easy to get confused in just thinking that a heavy bullet will penetrate more. The SD of a bullet tells you everything. The more SD a bullet has the more mass it has pushing it forward. For example a 300gr. 44M going the same speed as a 300gr. 45C bullet will penetrate slightly more because it has more SD and less frontal area. So although a 44M with the same SD as a 357M has more momentum and weight it will ultimately penetrate the same if loaded to the same velocity. The 44M has more momentum but it will also face more resistance while penetrating due to its larger surface or frontal area. A 200gr. 357M bullet going 1300fps is going to penetrate quite a bit. Almost as much as a 300gr. 44M going the same speed.
 
Yes it will penetrate, but penetration is not the only fact.

I'm sure a .22MAG moving out of an 8" revolver probably hits around 1500+ fps. I don't know, but let's play anyways.

A .22MAG has a long lead bullet with probably comparable sectional density. Does this mean that penetration for .22MAG is the same as .357 and .44? And even if penetration is the same, the wound channel is certainly not comparable.

There is more forcefully torn and displaced tissue with the .44 compared to the .357 due to the energy expended by the bullet as it sheds momentum. There are "shock cavities" for lack of a better word. They are larger with a .44 than with a .357. It's like digging a hole with a garden trowel (.22), a normal sized shovel (.357) and a backhoe blade (.44).

Again, this is with SD and velocity being equal between bullets.
 
I'm not saying they will have the same affect on the target. I'm just saying that they have the same range and penetration potential. The 44M is much more effective on game than 357M, there is no denying that.
 
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Hello gentleman, this is getting fun :)

Fired at a 45 degree angle a 30-06 does about 5,500 yards while the 357M and 44M do about 2400 yds.
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cje1980 I know the formula, and the site you got it from, but doesn’t say anything about .357mag ;)

If you drop a .357 slug and a .44 slug that have equal wind resistance (Sectional Density), they will hit the ground at the same time.
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Hold done there, .357mag and .44mag DON’T have the same wind resistance, that’s NOT what SD means.

Cje1980 you might be confusing BC with SD. Note that BC changes with velocity so it’s not a constant.

Now I do agree that two bullets moving at the same velocities that have same BC (note not the SD!) will travel the same distance, I never disagreed with that. BUT .44mag can push (a heavier bullet) with the larger BC at the same velocities or even faster than .357mag can, therefore .44mag can achieve a longer MAX range and penetration than .357 and that’s what I was saying all along. :)

Example .357 and .44 can push a 180 and 300gr bullets respectively at the same speeds (about 1300fps). But BC for 300gr XTP .44 (@ over 1200fps) is 0.23 and BC for 180gr XTP .357 (@ 1200-1600fps) is only 0.199, therefore .44 will go further.
 
While we at it let’s look at 9mm and .45acp :eek: (not starting a debate here just posting some facts):D

9mm 115gr and .45 185gr have the same SD (.130), so do 124gr 9mm and 200gr .45 (~.140), 9mm 147gr will have slightly larger SD(.167) than 230gr .45 (.162). But in all cases 9mm will have higher Ballistic Coefficient number, not to mention higher velocity...;)
 
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