.357 and .44

"to get my purchasing permit"

Gaaah! purchasing permits! :barf: They tick me off no end -- those busybodies who feel the need to "permit" your to exercise you inalienable right to be armed. They have managed to turn a basic right into a privilege, to be granted or withheld at the busybodies's whim... :mad:
 
barring buying factory loads from the likes of Buffalo Bore, that is the way you can actually attain the really stellar performance potential that the round has to offer.
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That is what I was saying and got pretty much attacked for basically saying that the 357Mag isn't as weak as some make it out to be. With 6"+ barrel you can get 800-900ft/lbs of energy. I don't consider 550-600ft/lbs of energy out of a 4" barrel to be terribly weak for factory loads. You can easily add another 100ft/lbs of energy just going to a 6" barrel. ImLugger defends his 9mm to death vs the 45 but then refuses to ackowledge that 1200ft/lbs is not twice what 850ft/lbs is. None of Double Tap's 44Mag loads are over 1200ft/lbs and their 357Mag loads clearly make over 800ft/lbs from a 6" barrel. He still hasn't shown me one 44Mag load that makes at least 1700ft/lbs that can be shot from all guns. None of BB's 357Mag ammo is +p+ either, just listed as Heavy. To me I really think the 357Mag fills a void and is a great all around weapon that does so many things well.
 
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Hiya boys!! We all gettin' along now? As for my numbers being way off: Nope!

However I will clarify a little: The 357 numbers are out of my 2.25" sp101, the 44 numbers are out of my 9.5" SRH, both being the average of a couple cylinders each of winchester, remington, federal and speer loads in the respective calibers and weights. Real world guns, real world uses. My own 44 mag hunting load(using current data) drives a 245 HCSWC @ 1550 out of the SRH. In my 7.5" 357 redhawk the fastest I can make a 158 HCSWC go is right about 1300 (with current data).

Guess what using the older 43,500 ABSOLUTE MAX in 44 mag will do, instead of the curent 36,000?

In a 4" 357 a standard 158 USED to do 1400+, but that was back when the SAMMI spec was still at 45,000 max. Now we have these utra-super-scandi-ti-unobtainium lightweights, so SAMMI dropped the spes to 36,000 max. So there really isn't a "wrong" answer here. Using the older(higher pressure) max loads in the redhawk yields velocities aproaching 1700fps with a 158 HCSWC.


As for the original posters questions: 44 is nothing to be scared of, but you may want to work up to it. If it was a "one or the other" situation-I would go with the 357.
 
In my 7.5" 357 redhawk the fastest I can make a 158 HCSWC go is right about 1300 (with current data).
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Hi Ben, You should try DT ammo, their 158gr. load does over 1500fps from a 6" barrel, that should easily make 1600from your 7.5" barrel. Didn't you say on another thread that you get 1600fps from your DE. Thanks for the clarification. I don't think some people realize that the 357Mag still makes 450ft/lbs of energy from a snubby barrel. I love the 44Mag as well and it is definitely one of the greatest things to come around for handguns in the last century. My 44Mag Redhawk is kind of like a companion that goes with me when deep in the woods. It just drives me nuts when people describe the 357 as a pee-shooter.
 
Have any of you quoting this velocities from your guns (example: 180gr going 1500fps from a 6" 357) actually measured them with a chronograph? I've found from chronographing my loads that few of the velocities quoted in the manuals are achievable because the velocities and pressures they list were actually done with test barrels. In fact, using hodgdons listed maximum charge of 13.5 gr. of H110 with a 180gr. bullet out of a 5.5" barreled freedom arms 357 revolver chronos at just over 1100 fps. The only way I could get over 1500 fps from a 180 gr. 357 bullet was out of a 10" 357 maximum... and it showed signs of overpressure.

just my 2 cents
Jim
 
In wheelguns, I own a SP101 (357) and a Vaquero (44). I like them both. Both are versatile rounds. In the last 2 years, the SP101 has become my wife's weapon of choice (she's dang good with that 2" snubbie!), while the vaquero has become my plinking/hunting gun.

Now, I load for both. Makes for much cheaper ammo, it's fun and I can load to whatever specs I need. In this, I'll weigh in with Ben. The older loads are much more powerfull than the current SAMMI specs. But ya gotta know your gun! Some of these newer models won't take the pressure, especially if your loading to Buffalo Bore like specs.

Next week, I'm going elk hunting with my son. I'll be using my vaquero. I've spent the entire last year and a half learning to shoot long distance (100-200yds) and feel quite comfortable with it now. Scope? Don't need no F'ing scope (and who would want to mar that pretty vaquero anyway!). Yes, you can hunt at those distances without a scope. Like most things gun, it takes practice, practice and more practice.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that to experience the true versatility of either gun, you just about have to learn to handload. Either gun can be loaded for mild cowboy loads; self defense type loads or heavy hunting loads (a friend of mine routinely hunts black bear with his 357). There are some really good factory loads out there, but they just can't compare to loading your own, in either caliber.
 
Laytonj1: My numbers are over a chrono. It's a shooting crony beta model. My data was taken on a clear, 80 degree day at an altidude of about 4500 ft. Hope this helps.

One WHOOPS to clarify: that 158@1300 with current data is in my sp101, NOT my redhawk.

Cje1980: I got a 180gr. load that does 1600 in my 357 hawk- who's callin' a 357 a pea-shooter!?
 
Hi Ben, the comment wasn't directed towards you. Some others were painting an image for Bonstrosity that the
357Mag is a totally weak incapable cartridge and that the 44Mag is way more powerful than it. While the 44Mag is definitely a better hunting cartridge due to the better energy, penetration, and larger caliber. It does have the same case length as the 357Mag so there is no way that the 357Mag can only produce half the energy. That was my point. Some people think that a 500-600ft/lbs 357Mag load is all that the 357Mag can do.

If you think of how many small-medium framed 357Mag SD handguns have been produced in the last 50years, who would try to commercially manufacture and market heavy 357Mag loads? A simple point that I was trying to make is that manufacturers don't load the 357Mag to its potential because there hasn't been that high of a demand nor strong enough weapons to fire them from until recently. Somebody would have to be insane to shoot 900ft/lbs 357Mag loads out of a K or J frame S&W.
 
Long time lurker, 1st time poster...great forum, BTW.

I thought I'd inquire as to the differences between these two rounds both in velocity and energy 15 to 100 yards down range where the data would be a better indicator of each round's usefulness, practically speaking vs. Muzzle velocity/energy performance.

Tom
 
That really depends on the load itself for each of the calibers. In general the heavier loads keep their energy better at longer distances. For example Federal's hunting Cast-Core loads for 357M, 41M, and 44M all have the same velocity and keep all the same velocity at the same ranges. The 357M has about 650ft/lbs of energy, the 41M has about 850ft/lbs and the 44M has about 1050ft/lbs. For comparison sake though, the 357M with the same length barrel tested as the other two would have about 750ft/lbs. So, simply put all three of these rounds in comparable loads and weights in relation to caliber keep the same velocity at range. The larger calibers keep their energy at distance, not because of impact velocity but because of the heavier weight of their bullets. So basically a 180gr. 357Mag load going 1250fps at the muzzle will have the same velocity at 100yards as a 300gr. 44M load also going 1250fps at the muzzle.
 
I don’t know about that, there are a number of factors that can effect the velocity at longer ranges like bullet design; HP will slow down a bit faster than a round nose or flat point. Also a bullet with a smaller diameter will have an advantage. But .44mag actually has a longer range than .357mag because a beavier bullet will retain the velocity/power better.
 
But .44mag actually has a longer range than .357mag because a beavier bullet will retain the velocity/power better.
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It retains more energy not velocity. Actually it doesn't really retain energy better it just had more start with. Define longer range. Longer effective range, or range of bullet trajectory? They will both drop at the same distances, just the 44Mag will have more killing power at the longer ranges.
 
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That really depends on the load itself for each of the calibers. In general the heavier loads keep their energy better at longer distances. For example Federal's hunting Cast-Core loads for 357M, 41M, and 44M all have the same velocity and keep all the same velocity at the same ranges. The 357M has about 650ft/lbs of energy, the 41M has about 850ft/lbs and the 44M has about 1050ft/lbs. For comparison sake though, the 357M with the same length barrel tested as the other two would have about 750ft/lbs. So, simply put all three of these rounds in comparable loads and weights in relation to caliber keep the same velocity at range. The larger calibers keep their energy at distance, not because of impact velocity but because of the heavier weight of their bullets. So basically a 180gr. 357Mag load going 1250fps at the muzzle will have the same velocity at 100yards as a 300gr. 44M load also going 1250fps at the muzzle.


cje1980,

I can see that you are one of those people who believes what they read on the side of the ammuntion box or on the manufacturer's website. I also went to Federal's website and read the same information that you did.

For those who want to see what we saw goto the following link, choose "centerfire pistol", wait for the page to reload and then under bullet type, choose "castcore". This will give you the three loads discussed above. Check the ballistics to see the cookie cutter ballistics we are discussing.

http://www.federalcartridge.com/defa...pg=27&firearm=

Doesn't it seem odd that for all three calibers and at each of the same ranges the numbers are exactly the same? Anyone who has used a chronograph before can tell you that using any factory ammunition you rarely see the same velocity come up between shots of the same caliber, let alone three different calibers over the span of 4 different range measurements. Hmmm, can we cry B.S. now or what?!?!?!?

Now on to the .357 and .44 discussion...

Gunandammo.com has an interesting article about the .44 magnum that has some relevant information about this conversation.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/fifty_101105/

.44mag

P.S. I carry a 4" .44 magnum tracker loaded with 250 gr Keith's @ 1200fps every day for CCW. I wear light shirts and shorts to work. Who says a .44 magnum isn't effective for CCW or SD? I guarantee if they were 3 feet from me they still wouldn't know I was carrying a "hunting pistol for CCW". :) Just my thoughts, good luck everyone, enjoy what you shoot.
 
I don't believe all the ballistics of all the ammo manufacturers. I've found Federal's ballistics to be very accurate. Remington has also been pretty accurate. Winchester tends to be quite a bit off however, and would never trust their ballistics. Some ammo manufacturers (Federal, Corbon) are very accurate with their ballistics. Others aren't. The question at hand is very difficult to answer just simply comparing cartridges though. It will vary from load to load.
 
I read the article and actually have a copy of that issue with that article. It didn't mention anything about what we are talking about. If anything you could gather by my posts that I don't necessarily believe the ballistics that are printed on the boxes. I think all of my previous posts were saying pretty much only that. My 6" Ruger GP100, for example, consistently gets significantly more power than what is generally printed on ammo boxes.
 
I don't believe all the ballistics of all the ammo manufacturers. I've found Federal's ballistics to be very accurate.
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So what you are telling me is that you believe a company that posts ballistics like these below, for three different calibers, different bullet weights, and you can honestly believe they are EXACTLY the same??? Look at the bullet drop, and wind drift, they are the same exact numbers as well. Looks a little fishy to me, especially when you already acknowledge that posted ammunition ballistics are usually off. As I have posted many times, real life experience shines through.

Here is what is posted on Federal's site, I didn't grab the wind drift or bullet drop, but I am sure people can go look if they want, they will find it is exactly what you see below, cookie cutter ballistics.

180 grain .357 Magnum out of a 4" bbl

1250 fps - 0 yds
1200 fps - 25 yds
1155 fps - 50 yds
1115 fps - 75 yds
1080 fps - 100 yds

250 grain .41 magnum out of a 6.5" bbl

1250 fps - 0 yds
1200 fps - 25 yds
1155 fps- 50 yds
1115 fps- 75 yds
1080 fps- 100 yds

300 grain .44 magnum out of a 6.5" bbl

1250 fps - 0 yds
1200 fps - 25 yds
1155 fps - 50 yds
1115 fps - 75 yds
1080 fps - 100 yds
 
I wouldn't believe that they are exactly the same or identical but I'm willing to believe they are similar. I should clarify, me trusting Federal was regarding their energy figures and velocities. In general I've found their figures to be generally accurate. My statement still stands true, that a heavy load from each of the calibers will lose velocity at a similar rate. Can you show me otherwise.
 
P.S. I carry a 4" .44 magnum tracker loaded with 250 gr Keith's @ 1200fps every day for CCW.
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Just a question, but why would you use the above listed load as an anit-personnel carry round? That is just going to fly right through a BG, without expanding at at all. I could understand if you are constantly out doors. That load isn't really practical for a city carry load, or even a HD load. Just wondering. I never said carrying a 44M can't be done, just that there are more practical choices out there.
 
Define longer range. Longer effective range, or range of bullet trajectory? They will both drop at the same distances, just the 44Mag will have more killing power at the longer ranges.
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I meant the .44 bullet will traver further. They don't have the same trajectory.
 
I meant the .44 bullet will traver further. They don't have the same trajectory.
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It all depends on the loads being compared. Its too complex an issue to say that this caliber has longer range than this one. Some 357M loads will travel further and some 44M will travel further. A heavy 357M and heavy 44M loaded to similar velocities have similar trajectories, thus traveling similar distances. I've found that my favorite 357M hunting load when zeroed to be about 2" high at 25yds doesn't start dropping below POA until past 100 yds. The 357M has pretty good range, just not as much power as the 44M at that range. So they will both travel similar distances, just that the 44Mag will still have much more "smack" on game at that range. Some heavy 44M loads still have sufficient energy to drop game even at 200yds. The 357M obviously doesn't, my favorite 357 load has about 530ft/lbs of energy at 100yds. That is the most I would use it for deer-sized game. That is also the furthest distance I would actually try to hunt at with open-sights or even a 2X scope, for that matter.
 
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