katana8869
New member
Well.... I've acheived one shot stops on 3 out of those 4 examples with a .22 carbine.... What do I win?
.22lr Carbine for hd
- Thread starter MoBart
- Start date
Well.... I've acheived one shot stops on 3 out of those 4 examples with a .22 carbine.... What do I win?
Edward429451
Moderator
Me and my shootin buds did some chronographing with 22 LR ammo and we found that the most efficient bbl length is 10". What I don't know is if this info is a good indicator of performance across the board, or just in our guns. 
CCI Stingers
980 FPS (FA Mini-Revo 1-1/8")
1192 FPS (Ruger Bearcat 4")
1516 FPS (Ruger MK II 10")
1550 FPS (Ruger 10/22 18")
CCI Velocitors
1126 FPS/ 34 AD/ 165 ES (Ruger 10/22 18")
As for the stopping power or lack thereof, I think that it's more how you wield it than the actual caliber (perhaps in most cases at least). In a raging firefight of course I would want a larger caliber that has more penetration, but for most of us, a 22 would be enough to make most evildoers back down. I'm looking real hard at Rugers Charger pistol right now. I think it'd make a dandy house gun with a red dot and a fat Mag.
CCI Stingers
980 FPS (FA Mini-Revo 1-1/8")
1192 FPS (Ruger Bearcat 4")
1516 FPS (Ruger MK II 10")
1550 FPS (Ruger 10/22 18")
CCI Velocitors
1126 FPS/ 34 AD/ 165 ES (Ruger 10/22 18")
As for the stopping power or lack thereof, I think that it's more how you wield it than the actual caliber (perhaps in most cases at least). In a raging firefight of course I would want a larger caliber that has more penetration, but for most of us, a 22 would be enough to make most evildoers back down. I'm looking real hard at Rugers Charger pistol right now. I think it'd make a dandy house gun with a red dot and a fat Mag.
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@ kinoons
The situation is rather bliss if the attacker prefers to continue his attack although resistence is evident. Having a handgun caliber rifle only improves your chances marginaly. Improvements have been made with modern bullet construction, but still there are countless reports of failure to stop someone/something with multiple rounds fired. If this situation ever happens to me, I hope to have a highpower riflecaliber or shotgun firearm in my hands.
Emptying a 10/15/17/33 round magazine into someone might be frowend on by the law depending on where you live. And proving you needed all that firepower to stop one assailant won't be easy.
This whole discussion arises from the typical fear of people that zombie like hords will run down your perimeter to steal your can of campells soup. I belive that not to be the norm for homedefense.
If I am wrong please correct me.
7
The situation is rather bliss if the attacker prefers to continue his attack although resistence is evident. Having a handgun caliber rifle only improves your chances marginaly. Improvements have been made with modern bullet construction, but still there are countless reports of failure to stop someone/something with multiple rounds fired. If this situation ever happens to me, I hope to have a highpower riflecaliber or shotgun firearm in my hands.
Emptying a 10/15/17/33 round magazine into someone might be frowend on by the law depending on where you live. And proving you needed all that firepower to stop one assailant won't be easy.
This whole discussion arises from the typical fear of people that zombie like hords will run down your perimeter to steal your can of campells soup. I belive that not to be the norm for homedefense.
If I am wrong please correct me.
7
sleeper --
having a handgun caliber carbine only marginally improves your odds? How do you come to this conclusion, and compared to what? A carbine vs a handgun in the same caliber?
from Ballistics by the inch -- 9mm test
(steyr s9 vs keltec sub 2000)
FHS 147 grain, my personal favorite -- 931fps vs 1086fps or 155fps to the carbine
Corbon 125 grain +P gets you 1178fps vs 1387 fps or
209fps to the carbine
if a 5.7x28 is your preferred cartage (fiveseven pistol vs ps90 carbine)
46grain Protector III -- 1850 fps vs 1400fps -- 350 fps to the carbine
40grain Protector I -- 2092fps vs 2650fps -- 558fps to the carbine
a 30 carbine (110 grain) leaves an m1 carbine at 1990fps. It goes 1440fps from a revolver (a 7.5" barrel revolver). again advantage carbine at 550fps
So, as we would expect, you get a lot more energy from a carbine. This frequently equates to deeper penetration, but may not get you larger expansion.
from http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/6626/pistol-caliber-carbines/
Terminal Performance Comparison
Load EXP (inches) RW (grains) PEN (inches)
9 mm 124-grain Speer Pistol .71 124 13.25
9 mm 124-grain Speer Carbine .45 107 17.50
9 mm Federal 115-grain JHP(P) .57 114 14.50
9 mm Federal 115-grain JHP(C) .50 70 16.00
This is why I advocate for the heaviest round your pistol or carbine will reliably cycle. Out of the longer barrel you get more velocity but remain closer to the best performance for your ammo. The heavier ammo also will penetrate deeper since it conserves its momentum longer.
I was unable to find any specific tests comparing any 5.7x28 or 30 carbine rounds from a pistol vs carbine. I would venture to guess (I hate guessing) that since both the 30 carbine and 5.7x28 were designed first as carbine rounds they will perform well from their respective platforms.
back to the point, since I can ramble. A carbine offers many advantages compared to a pistol -- longer sight radius, electronic sights if you desire, larger ammunition capacities, easier to train and become proficient with. The only drawback is the larger size may limit usability with one hand.
Your premise that we are preparing for a zombie hoard is a false one. The simple truth is that a carbine is a more effective tool for incapacitating an attacker than a pistol is. Because of this, given the option to choose, I would pick my ps90 over my walther PPS for a firefight. In the context of this thread, I would choose my ps90 over a ruger 10/22.
having a handgun caliber carbine only marginally improves your odds? How do you come to this conclusion, and compared to what? A carbine vs a handgun in the same caliber?
from Ballistics by the inch -- 9mm test
(steyr s9 vs keltec sub 2000)
FHS 147 grain, my personal favorite -- 931fps vs 1086fps or 155fps to the carbine
Corbon 125 grain +P gets you 1178fps vs 1387 fps or
209fps to the carbine
if a 5.7x28 is your preferred cartage (fiveseven pistol vs ps90 carbine)
46grain Protector III -- 1850 fps vs 1400fps -- 350 fps to the carbine
40grain Protector I -- 2092fps vs 2650fps -- 558fps to the carbine
a 30 carbine (110 grain) leaves an m1 carbine at 1990fps. It goes 1440fps from a revolver (a 7.5" barrel revolver). again advantage carbine at 550fps
So, as we would expect, you get a lot more energy from a carbine. This frequently equates to deeper penetration, but may not get you larger expansion.
from http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/6626/pistol-caliber-carbines/
Terminal Performance Comparison
Load EXP (inches) RW (grains) PEN (inches)
9 mm 124-grain Speer Pistol .71 124 13.25
9 mm 124-grain Speer Carbine .45 107 17.50
9 mm Federal 115-grain JHP(P) .57 114 14.50
9 mm Federal 115-grain JHP(C) .50 70 16.00
This is why I advocate for the heaviest round your pistol or carbine will reliably cycle. Out of the longer barrel you get more velocity but remain closer to the best performance for your ammo. The heavier ammo also will penetrate deeper since it conserves its momentum longer.
I was unable to find any specific tests comparing any 5.7x28 or 30 carbine rounds from a pistol vs carbine. I would venture to guess (I hate guessing) that since both the 30 carbine and 5.7x28 were designed first as carbine rounds they will perform well from their respective platforms.
back to the point, since I can ramble. A carbine offers many advantages compared to a pistol -- longer sight radius, electronic sights if you desire, larger ammunition capacities, easier to train and become proficient with. The only drawback is the larger size may limit usability with one hand.
Your premise that we are preparing for a zombie hoard is a false one. The simple truth is that a carbine is a more effective tool for incapacitating an attacker than a pistol is. Because of this, given the option to choose, I would pick my ps90 over my walther PPS for a firefight. In the context of this thread, I would choose my ps90 over a ruger 10/22.
@ kinoons
Thanks for the info and the link. No offense ment with my little provocative/ironical zombie comment.
What I find disturbing in all of the comparative tests I have seen sofar is that there is no mentioning of at what penetration depth the expansion began in 1.handgun 2. carabine. Further the pics of nice "naked" gelatine is always impressive but it doesn't corrolate to reallity. There have been quite a few tests that I read of where "plugging" of the cavity of the hollowpoint, by clotheing put before the gelatine block, have been described, transforming the hollowpoint to a "roundnose" projectile. So what are we doing with a "full metal jaket" round in selfdefense? Many of us know how effective it is to hunt with full metal jacket. [Yeah I know the only option for brain shoots on elephant, rhino, etc.] (Just throwing in some provocative ideas to hopefully get some scientifically done results that I have not been aware of. Hearsay is not an option when life is on hand.)
My comment on handgun vs. carabine was from the fact that many survivors of firearm conflicts still have the projectiles imbeded in their body. So it comes down to shot placement as the major factor to killing your opponent. Bullet design and caliber improve your chances, but having someone die later on because of tissue damage done to the intestines will not satisfy your mourning relatives.
My whole comment derives from the fact that intruders are seldom totally stupid(even crackheads). They all posses an instinkt for survival. That is also the reason why they are intruding your home. So if you awake early enough to prepare your firearm and warn them that you are armed, I donot believe that the majority will be willing to neglect their survival instinct. Something has gone wrong anyhow if you are at home and the intruder is trying to come in. The majority wants to intrude undisturbed so they will choose moments when you are not at home. That is a statistical fact.
I totaly agree that a hollowoint will probably improve your survival and firing it from a carabine will make it even more impressive. But if it has come sofar your preventive measures have not been sufficient.
7
Thanks for the info and the link. No offense ment with my little provocative/ironical zombie comment.
What I find disturbing in all of the comparative tests I have seen sofar is that there is no mentioning of at what penetration depth the expansion began in 1.handgun 2. carabine. Further the pics of nice "naked" gelatine is always impressive but it doesn't corrolate to reallity. There have been quite a few tests that I read of where "plugging" of the cavity of the hollowpoint, by clotheing put before the gelatine block, have been described, transforming the hollowpoint to a "roundnose" projectile. So what are we doing with a "full metal jaket" round in selfdefense? Many of us know how effective it is to hunt with full metal jacket. [Yeah I know the only option for brain shoots on elephant, rhino, etc.] (Just throwing in some provocative ideas to hopefully get some scientifically done results that I have not been aware of. Hearsay is not an option when life is on hand.)
My comment on handgun vs. carabine was from the fact that many survivors of firearm conflicts still have the projectiles imbeded in their body. So it comes down to shot placement as the major factor to killing your opponent. Bullet design and caliber improve your chances, but having someone die later on because of tissue damage done to the intestines will not satisfy your mourning relatives.
My whole comment derives from the fact that intruders are seldom totally stupid(even crackheads). They all posses an instinkt for survival. That is also the reason why they are intruding your home. So if you awake early enough to prepare your firearm and warn them that you are armed, I donot believe that the majority will be willing to neglect their survival instinct. Something has gone wrong anyhow if you are at home and the intruder is trying to come in. The majority wants to intrude undisturbed so they will choose moments when you are not at home. That is a statistical fact.
I totaly agree that a hollowoint will probably improve your survival and firing it from a carabine will make it even more impressive. But if it has come sofar your preventive measures have not been sufficient.
7
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Sleeper
I agree that gel isnt the perfect test medium, but it is a consistent one allowing round performance to be compaired on equal footing.
This all boils down to exactly how prepared we want to be. I agree with you that 99% of conflicts will be resolved by the presence of a firearm and it's first shot. The question then becomes how well do you want to equip yourself for that 1% chance. When limited to a handgun, such a during daily concealed carry, there becomes a major limitation between size, weight, caliber, and capacity.
Since this thread started as a home defense carbine thread those limitations are not present. In the overwhelming majority of instances a 22lr carbine will end a conflict. However, since the difference between a 22lr carbine and a larger caliber carbine is negligible, I advocate a larger one. That doesn't mean that a 22lr is junk, just that there are better options to cover the remaining 1% of conflicts.
I also agree that there are many factors to a successful defensive shooting. With the round used being only a single variable, it is important to train so that shot placement and follow-up shot times are not the limiting factors.
I agree that gel isnt the perfect test medium, but it is a consistent one allowing round performance to be compaired on equal footing.
This all boils down to exactly how prepared we want to be. I agree with you that 99% of conflicts will be resolved by the presence of a firearm and it's first shot. The question then becomes how well do you want to equip yourself for that 1% chance. When limited to a handgun, such a during daily concealed carry, there becomes a major limitation between size, weight, caliber, and capacity.
Since this thread started as a home defense carbine thread those limitations are not present. In the overwhelming majority of instances a 22lr carbine will end a conflict. However, since the difference between a 22lr carbine and a larger caliber carbine is negligible, I advocate a larger one. That doesn't mean that a 22lr is junk, just that there are better options to cover the remaining 1% of conflicts.
I also agree that there are many factors to a successful defensive shooting. With the round used being only a single variable, it is important to train so that shot placement and follow-up shot times are not the limiting factors.
Edward429451
Moderator
Ditto on the Ruger Charger.
silvermane_1
New member
imho i think that for hd a 12 gauge with birdshot works fine in a pump 18.5" platform, a 22lr in carbine platform is good too, but accounting for the possible jambing that might happen at worst possible moment, but also considered the kel-tec pmr-30(if you can get your hands on one) is a good option aswell because of it's 30 round magazine and being a 22 wmr giving a little more power than 22lr.
) is a good option aswell because of it's 30 round magazine and being a 22 wmr giving a little more power than 22lr.Onward Allusion
New member
For those recommending the Ruger Charger, here is a major caveat.
Get rid of the OEM wood laminated stock that it comes with and drop it into an Axiom stock.
The problem with the OEM wood stock is that it isn't a true pistol grip. The Charger, although technically a pistol isn't meant for pistol styled shooting, especially in its OEM form. BTW, the Charger is probably one of the better choices (after a 9 or 10 shot wheel gun in 22LR) for home-defense if the user is only comfortable with 22LR.
Get rid of the OEM wood laminated stock that it comes with and drop it into an Axiom stock.
The problem with the OEM wood stock is that it isn't a true pistol grip. The Charger, although technically a pistol isn't meant for pistol styled shooting, especially in its OEM form. BTW, the Charger is probably one of the better choices (after a 9 or 10 shot wheel gun in 22LR) for home-defense if the user is only comfortable with 22LR.
Our local Sportsman's Club has had a 2-Gun Match for several years. We have also had a Rimfire Division for several years. We started out with lots of 10-22's in various configurations in the Rimfire Division. The equipment evolution has most shooters in Rimfire Division shooting some form of an AR15-22 now days. M&P-22, Sig 522, and various Rimfire uppers on AR15 lowers. Weapons sights are all over the place also. We have open sights, Eotec's, UltraDot's, Low Magnification Scopes, etc.
As a Match Official I am also involved in Scoring, and Pasteing the targets. What we see with rimfire is normally both shots are very close together center mass in the targets. We Double Tap all targets. It is very common to paste both bullet holes with a single target paster. I also see very good accuracy, and shot placement with rimfire. The malfunction rate also seems much better with the AR style rifles.
Lets look at a few points.
The 22 rimfire is very economical to train/practice with.
The 22 rimfire has a very low recoil impulse, so the new shooter will not develope a flench while learning to shoot.
The 22 rimfire by nature is great to plink with. With the low cost of practice ammunition any shooter can get in enough trigger time to get good.
I like the 22 rimfire as a training tool, for all the above reasons. With any centerfire, ammunition cost is going to be a limiting factor in the amount of live fire practice/training that can be done.
The young fellow getting his girlfriend to shoot at all is a huge step in the correct direction.
I am a firm believer in being prepaired. I also think the 22 LR has a place in prepairedness. It has the advantage of being the only cartridge most folks can stock enough ammunition in to last for a long period of time without a significant drain on your daily resources for a long period of time. It is not a big drain for most of us to add another 550 pak to our supply every week or two.
A 22 carbine while not the ideal home defense weapon, can get the job done. In an AR Platform it can be upgraded with a weapons light down the road. Additional magazines can be added to your supplies. A weapons mounted Laser Sight can also be added if needed. Sights can be upgraded from Open, to a Red Dot, or Eotec as time passes. If you are working with a weapons system like a Tactical Solutions AR15-22 Upper, you can add a centerfire Upper Assembly at a later date. At this point you can still get in lots of quality trigger time with the 22, and in less than a minute switch your rimfire upper out to a centerfire. Also all the add ons like the weapons light will mount on the centerfire. And best of all everything is pretty much identical. The stock is the same, the trigger is the same, everything feels the same. No issues with transition. And a really great advantage, you can keep building on the AR15 platform over time. You do not need to invest in everything at once.
In my opinion the 22 carbine will keep her well enough armed until she is ready to move up to more power. The most important thing at this point is getting in enough trigger time to feel comfortable with what she is using. The 22 rimfire is the best solution to getting in that trigger time.
Bob
As a Match Official I am also involved in Scoring, and Pasteing the targets. What we see with rimfire is normally both shots are very close together center mass in the targets. We Double Tap all targets. It is very common to paste both bullet holes with a single target paster. I also see very good accuracy, and shot placement with rimfire. The malfunction rate also seems much better with the AR style rifles.
Lets look at a few points.
The 22 rimfire is very economical to train/practice with.
The 22 rimfire has a very low recoil impulse, so the new shooter will not develope a flench while learning to shoot.
The 22 rimfire by nature is great to plink with. With the low cost of practice ammunition any shooter can get in enough trigger time to get good.
I like the 22 rimfire as a training tool, for all the above reasons. With any centerfire, ammunition cost is going to be a limiting factor in the amount of live fire practice/training that can be done.
The young fellow getting his girlfriend to shoot at all is a huge step in the correct direction.
I am a firm believer in being prepaired. I also think the 22 LR has a place in prepairedness. It has the advantage of being the only cartridge most folks can stock enough ammunition in to last for a long period of time without a significant drain on your daily resources for a long period of time. It is not a big drain for most of us to add another 550 pak to our supply every week or two.
A 22 carbine while not the ideal home defense weapon, can get the job done. In an AR Platform it can be upgraded with a weapons light down the road. Additional magazines can be added to your supplies. A weapons mounted Laser Sight can also be added if needed. Sights can be upgraded from Open, to a Red Dot, or Eotec as time passes. If you are working with a weapons system like a Tactical Solutions AR15-22 Upper, you can add a centerfire Upper Assembly at a later date. At this point you can still get in lots of quality trigger time with the 22, and in less than a minute switch your rimfire upper out to a centerfire. Also all the add ons like the weapons light will mount on the centerfire. And best of all everything is pretty much identical. The stock is the same, the trigger is the same, everything feels the same. No issues with transition. And a really great advantage, you can keep building on the AR15 platform over time. You do not need to invest in everything at once.
In my opinion the 22 carbine will keep her well enough armed until she is ready to move up to more power. The most important thing at this point is getting in enough trigger time to feel comfortable with what she is using. The 22 rimfire is the best solution to getting in that trigger time.
Bob
orthosophy
New member
This is my point of view -
Any gun is better than a sharp stick. I've had a 10/22 since my dad gave his to me 20 years ago, and it was at least 10 years old then. I can count the number of reliability issues I've had on one hand, so FWIW, there you are.
My girlfriend wanted a HD gun, what did we decide on?
A short barreled Mossberg 20 gauge pump, with number 6 shot and cylinder choke.
Here's why:
Relatively inexpensive
Little training to become proficient
A slide racking is the universal noise for go away.
After three trips to the range and a few boxes of shells, she can reliably hit an area about the size of a paper plate at 7 yards, from the hip. I epoxied a straight line down the receiver (right above the trigger) so she can feel it in the dark and point pretty consistently. Further than that, and she is comfortable shouldering the gun properly. 6 shot will go through one wall like a slug at any kind of interior range. It's non unreasonable to hope a few walls will stop or slow it down to the point of impotence. It will certainly do the job through an interior hollow core door. I think any argument about the ballistic capabilities of a shotshell that isn't buckshot are pretty pointless at HD ranges. Walk your GF's place...I'd be surprised if there is longer than a 10 yard uninterrupted run.
I'd gladly take a .22 over nothing (if the SHTF my .22 would be my go to gun) but as a purpose owned weapon, there are just better options.
Any gun is better than a sharp stick. I've had a 10/22 since my dad gave his to me 20 years ago, and it was at least 10 years old then. I can count the number of reliability issues I've had on one hand, so FWIW, there you are.
My girlfriend wanted a HD gun, what did we decide on?
A short barreled Mossberg 20 gauge pump, with number 6 shot and cylinder choke.
Here's why:
Relatively inexpensive
Little training to become proficient
A slide racking is the universal noise for go away.
After three trips to the range and a few boxes of shells, she can reliably hit an area about the size of a paper plate at 7 yards, from the hip. I epoxied a straight line down the receiver (right above the trigger) so she can feel it in the dark and point pretty consistently. Further than that, and she is comfortable shouldering the gun properly. 6 shot will go through one wall like a slug at any kind of interior range. It's non unreasonable to hope a few walls will stop or slow it down to the point of impotence. It will certainly do the job through an interior hollow core door. I think any argument about the ballistic capabilities of a shotshell that isn't buckshot are pretty pointless at HD ranges. Walk your GF's place...I'd be surprised if there is longer than a 10 yard uninterrupted run.
I'd gladly take a .22 over nothing (if the SHTF my .22 would be my go to gun) but as a purpose owned weapon, there are just better options.
I don't think a ballistics argument at hd range is pointless. Even at point blank range a 20 gauge with 6 shot is not going to be fatal. We had a patient once who had taken #7 shot from a 12 gauge at less than ten feet to the chest. Only 2 bbs penetrated into the lungs. He was in a lot of pain but it was far from a life threatening injury. Had that been buck shot or a slug it would have killed him. I think I'd rather take a good knife or a wooden bat over a .22lr in an hd setting. But that's just me.
Again, look at the Reagan shooting. While 22LR is not my 1st choice for HD/SD, a 22 LR handgun (revolver) immediately took 3 out of action - 1 SS agent hit in the abdomen, 1 police officer hit in the neck, and Brady, struck in the head. All of them hit the ground unable to rise again. Reagan became dyspneic (short of breath) soon after he was put in the limo and taken to GWU Hospital where he collapsed just inside the front door. So I have great respect for the potential of the often-dismissed 22 LR cartridge.
Use what you can get in her hands.
My wife (who grew up in an anti-gun family) was extremely fearful of a firearm when she met me. The first time she ever handled a firearm was with me and its been a long time since that first time. She started shooting just my 10/22 - wouldn't touch anything else for fear of recoil and report. She wouldn't even consider a firearm for HD at that point. After a while I managed to convince her to try my AR with my CMMG .22LR upper on it. At that point in time she decided that she'd be willing to go for that if she needed to use a weapon for HD.
After a couple years of that she hesitantly moved to a handgun in .22LR. Then after some time after that she moved to a .380acp. Now she owns a Ruger LCP and practices with it twice a week. She's telling me that she's considering moving to the Ruger LCR in .38sp... so now its time to take her gun shopping again. I think eventually she'll move on to a 9x19. Do I expect her to ever move on to a .40 or .45? Absolutely not. Do I think that eventually I'll have her reaching for a 9mm pistol of some sort for HD and PD? Absolutely.
For a couple of years though I was happy just to know that she'd at least reach for A gun for HD rather than just hiding in the bedroom and being a victim (or worse yet allowing our children to be victims) while she's got loaded guns all around her.
In a case like this - a .22LR carbine is better than nothing. Is it the best option? Of course not but its definitely not the worst.
My wife (who grew up in an anti-gun family) was extremely fearful of a firearm when she met me. The first time she ever handled a firearm was with me and its been a long time since that first time. She started shooting just my 10/22 - wouldn't touch anything else for fear of recoil and report. She wouldn't even consider a firearm for HD at that point. After a while I managed to convince her to try my AR with my CMMG .22LR upper on it. At that point in time she decided that she'd be willing to go for that if she needed to use a weapon for HD.
After a couple years of that she hesitantly moved to a handgun in .22LR. Then after some time after that she moved to a .380acp. Now she owns a Ruger LCP and practices with it twice a week. She's telling me that she's considering moving to the Ruger LCR in .38sp... so now its time to take her gun shopping again. I think eventually she'll move on to a 9x19. Do I expect her to ever move on to a .40 or .45? Absolutely not. Do I think that eventually I'll have her reaching for a 9mm pistol of some sort for HD and PD? Absolutely.
For a couple of years though I was happy just to know that she'd at least reach for A gun for HD rather than just hiding in the bedroom and being a victim (or worse yet allowing our children to be victims) while she's got loaded guns all around her.
In a case like this - a .22LR carbine is better than nothing. Is it the best option? Of course not but its definitely not the worst.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Irishb-
Your comments are irresponsible. One shooting (that we don't know the circumstances of) is not an indicator of effectiveness.
I would think the case you cited would be the exception, rather than the norm. Most 20 gauge shotgun blasts to the chest within 10 feet would prove fatal.
Your comments are irresponsible. One shooting (that we don't know the circumstances of) is not an indicator of effectiveness.
I would think the case you cited would be the exception, rather than the norm. Most 20 gauge shotgun blasts to the chest within 10 feet would prove fatal.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
orthosopy said:
They aren't pointless at all and #6 shot is a poor choice for a variety of reasons. It seems to me that you are measuring your weapon's effectiveness based on what it can do to a hollow core dore. I'm willing to bet a grown man could probably put his fist through a hollow core dore. Never seen a grown man put his fist through another man's sternum.
As we've discussed here numerous times, there are three ways a firearm stops somebody from continuing an attack:
1. It stops the upper central nervous system from functioning through direct damage.
2. It causes unconscious by reducing the blood flow to the upper central nervous system via massive blood loss which can only be achieved by poklng holes in large, blood bearing organs.
3. Through pain or fear, it causes the attacker to choose to discontinue the attack.
The first two are physiological - no matter what choice your attacker makes, he will stop attacking because his body is not physically capable of functioning. The third is psychological - it relies on the attacker's mental state to be effective.
If you are seeking to stop an attacker via #1 or #2 above, the targets you are trying to reach are usually surrounded by bone, muscle, fat and ligament that can be significantly tougher than a hollow-core door in an apartment or a piece of drywall. Light birdshot will often be inadequate to reach these structures - this is one reason why less-lethal ammunitions like beanbags are basically #9-#7.5 shot encased in a cloth pouch - because this size shot has very poor penetration and you don't want less lethal ammo to penetrate.
Moving up to #6 shot and cloth casing increases penetration; but you are still looking at around 5" of penetration in BARE JELLO on average. Put a hollow core door, piece of drywall, appliance or even a jacket in front of that and your margin for error is gone.
Bill DeShivs said:
I disagree, probably because he is making the same point I am - #6 birdshot doesn't have enough penetration to be reliably achieve stops via #1 or #2 above unless you get a perfect profile:
1. Average sized male
2. Unobstructed chest shot from front or back only
3. Light clothing or no clothing at all
4. Range less than 15'
And as IrishB's anecdote indicates, even then birdshot will still occasionally fail to do the job. So I don't see how that comment is irresponsible.
IrishB's anecdote is by no means the only one out there where shotgun blasts to the chest or head at 10 feet were not only not fatal; but failed to stop the person shot from running, fighting back, or continuing to function. Can it immediately stop people? You bet. Can it kill people, even through walls? Again, it sure can. Will any heavier shot have a better chance of stopping someone immediately? Yes, it will. How muich margin for error does #6 shot have before it stops being effective? Not a whole hell of a lot.
orthosophy
New member
I will note that the original poster was asking about a .22 carbine for HD.
I invite anyone who thinks 6 shot from a 20 gauge at 10 feet is not a viable defense round to stand in front of one. My anecdotal experience is that being shot with a small caliber bullet really didn't hurt too much at the time, and didn't really stop me from functioning.
If you don't like it, if you aren't comfortable with it, by all means, use buck shot. The point is this: I'd take a small, light, reliable shotgun over a .22, for the OP.
I invite anyone who thinks 6 shot from a 20 gauge at 10 feet is not a viable defense round to stand in front of one. My anecdotal experience is that being shot with a small caliber bullet really didn't hurt too much at the time, and didn't really stop me from functioning.
If you don't like it, if you aren't comfortable with it, by all means, use buck shot. The point is this: I'd take a small, light, reliable shotgun over a .22, for the OP.
Double Naught Spy
New member
That is pretty big talk considering nobody has suggested 6 shots from a 20 gauge at 10 feet isn't viable defense.
Being "viable defense" and being a reliable stopper are not the same thing. Besides, what in the world makes you think you would get a chance to fire all six shots? If you want to based defense on the cumulative effects of repeated shots, then a Daisy Red Rider BB gun can be a viable defense as well.
And I bet you aren't willing to stand in front of one to be shot multiple times either, so then obviously the Red Rider is every bit as good of a reliable defense as you 20 ga. shotgun, right?
Silly and stupid criteria give you silly and stupid results.
Challenging folks to stand in front of a weapon and letting them be hit with it is not a valid challenge to substantiate the viability of that weapon for self defense.