.22LR, .25 Auto effectiveness throughout history
- Thread starter Sig_Dude
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nefprotector
Moderator
My best friend killed himself with a .25 acp. So they work.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I believe the stat is by caliber not cartridge, at least the rendition I saw. There are a whole lot of 22 cal cartridges.
Keep in mind the person may have died hours, days, or even weeks later. Many fatal shots with a 22lr will not slow someone down all that much.
Keep in mind the person may have died hours, days, or even weeks later. Many fatal shots with a 22lr will not slow someone down all that much.
orionengnr
New member
...and there you have it.
In the Real World, the range will be whatever it is...and the conditions will not be perfect.
We are not shooting fish in a barrel here.
The reason "some of us" carry a .45 is exactly that. You cannot count on perfect shot placement, optimal penetration. None of the variables are guaranteed to go your way...so in a worst case scenario, you eliminate as many of the variables as you can.
As has been stated so many times, this comes down to "carry the largest, most powerful caliber you can shoot quickly and accurately"...because that is your best insurance policy.
For me, that is a .45 acp.
YMMV.
Question Repeat
Please respond to this.
If someone put nine rimfire rounds into someones face at seven yards, how effective should it be. I mentioned a cow in a previous post. A cow's head is slightly harder and a cows brain is slightly smaller then ours. Head butt a cow and and see who wins. Anyway, a projectile that can penetrate the skull of a half ton animal should be able to penetrate the skull of an animal that is one-fourth of that, at least in theory.
If one had to use a .22 handgun for self-defense, which type of projectile would you recommend?
Please respond to this.
If someone put nine rimfire rounds into someones face at seven yards, how effective should it be. I mentioned a cow in a previous post. A cow's head is slightly harder and a cows brain is slightly smaller then ours. Head butt a cow and and see who wins. Anyway, a projectile that can penetrate the skull of a half ton animal should be able to penetrate the skull of an animal that is one-fourth of that, at least in theory.
If one had to use a .22 handgun for self-defense, which type of projectile would you recommend?
carguychris
New member
I recommend any commonplace 40gr round-nose high-velocity round that functions reliably in your gun.
I don't endorse hyper-velocity and high-velocity hollow points because a pistol barrel won't get them moving fast enough to expand consistently, and the bullets are lighter. Since the bullets are already very small, you need every bit of weight for adequate penetration.
Interesting...there was a shooting out my way with a .22 just the other day...
http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county/ci_15517568?source=rss&nclick_check=1
Note that the shooter also went to the hospital.
tipoc
http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county/ci_15517568?source=rss&nclick_check=1
Note that the shooter also went to the hospital.
tipoc
stargazer65
New member
That might be so, unfortunately the only 100% reliable cartridge I've shot out of the pocket Beretta is a hyper-velocity.
Sometimes, regardless of effectiveness, I just prefer to carry a .22. Sometimes I prefer to carry a Hi Cap 9mm, or a .38 J frame. I don't plan on trading in my .22 for a pocket .380. Even if I get a Seecamp, or whatever, I will probably carry the .22 sometimes. I like it and I don't live in a war zone.
I wasn't gong to post this but the big caliber crew is missing the total meaning of effectivness that has nothing to do with one shot stopping power. I have two personal examples and they are 100% true...
A druggy looking street thug walking down the street with a baseball bat asked me for $40 and I said no. He was approx 30' away and starting walking toward me with the bat raised while telling me he was going to F me up. I pulled the 25 out of my back pocket and he retreated (and busted the windshield out of a parked car). I called 911 and he was arrested around the corner about 5 minutes later. The cops told me he was a know criminal and herion addict. I was NOT arrested (Palm Bay, Fl PD).
I had another bazarr situation happen in 1985 with an undercover Brevard County, Florida, Deputy. The short of it is he was dressed like a dirt bag, verbally threatened bodily harm while charging toward me and I drew the 25 out of my back right pocket. I did not shoot but would have in about 2 seconds at point blank. He stopped and identified himself. Then I found out it was a case of mistaken identity. He thought I was a bad guy they had been chasing. He took my name, called it in and took the gun serial # but did NOT arrest me saying my actions were justified. Otherwise I would have been charged with a felony and sent to prison. He did NOT think I was armed because all I was wearing was a pair of shorts...no shoes and no shirt. This episode shook me up and still bothers me but it is what it is.
Both of these situations happened on my DRIVEWAY and were related to a criminal who lived around the block from us. He and his cronies were eventually arrested and left the neighborhood.
A druggy looking street thug walking down the street with a baseball bat asked me for $40 and I said no. He was approx 30' away and starting walking toward me with the bat raised while telling me he was going to F me up. I pulled the 25 out of my back pocket and he retreated (and busted the windshield out of a parked car). I called 911 and he was arrested around the corner about 5 minutes later. The cops told me he was a know criminal and herion addict. I was NOT arrested (Palm Bay, Fl PD).
I had another bazarr situation happen in 1985 with an undercover Brevard County, Florida, Deputy. The short of it is he was dressed like a dirt bag, verbally threatened bodily harm while charging toward me and I drew the 25 out of my back right pocket. I did not shoot but would have in about 2 seconds at point blank. He stopped and identified himself. Then I found out it was a case of mistaken identity. He thought I was a bad guy they had been chasing. He took my name, called it in and took the gun serial # but did NOT arrest me saying my actions were justified. Otherwise I would have been charged with a felony and sent to prison. He did NOT think I was armed because all I was wearing was a pair of shorts...no shoes and no shirt. This episode shook me up and still bothers me but it is what it is.
Both of these situations happened on my DRIVEWAY and were related to a criminal who lived around the block from us. He and his cronies were eventually arrested and left the neighborhood.
tackdriver
New member
Real-world experience
I have covered many shootings. Long guns did the job every time. Handguns not so much.
Two I've covered in the last couple of years involved nonfatal handgun shootings to the head (brain injuries)-- .380 ACP and .40 S&W. I covered a homicide in the Saltville, Va. area sometime 2001-2004 where two .25 rounds to the center of mass were fatal. I covered another slaying in Abingdon during that timeframe where the victim had a contact gunshot wound to the head with a Ruger .45 automatic -- no exit wound. Another case I covered this year involved a .357 Mag to the head. The trauma was remarkable, including so-called hydrostatic shock that caused skull fracturing. The JHP round worked as advertised, but came out sideways.
I have covered many shootings. Long guns did the job every time. Handguns not so much.
Two I've covered in the last couple of years involved nonfatal handgun shootings to the head (brain injuries)-- .380 ACP and .40 S&W. I covered a homicide in the Saltville, Va. area sometime 2001-2004 where two .25 rounds to the center of mass were fatal. I covered another slaying in Abingdon during that timeframe where the victim had a contact gunshot wound to the head with a Ruger .45 automatic -- no exit wound. Another case I covered this year involved a .357 Mag to the head. The trauma was remarkable, including so-called hydrostatic shock that caused skull fracturing. The JHP round worked as advertised, but came out sideways.
Mr. Carey,
You can carry whatever you like. I know that the .22 caliber as a self defense round is less effective than others. Personally I do not advise anyone to rely on it for that purpose if they have an option. In the same size guns (pretty much a Walther TPH is quite small) larger and more effective rounds are available. That does not make me either part of any "big caliber crew" or an advocate of "one shot stopping power."
I strongly advise against folks believing that the appearance of a gun is an automatic deterrent or expecting it to be a deterrent, or in any way planning on it being a deterrent. It may be it also may not be. Plan for the "may not be" part of that.
Expect and plan that even 6 or 7 rounds of a powerful handgun cartridge will not stop a person. If you plan on that you will be less shocked when it happens. No round is a guaranteed stopper.
But some rounds are more likely to stop or stun than others. The .22 l.r. is low on that list.
In the link I posted above a person thought he would stop his neighbors from making noise by intimidating them with a .22. He thought the sight of the gun would scare them into "acceptable behavior". It did not. It angered them. A fight ensued. He shot two of them with the .22. One of the men he shot took the gun away from him and beat him so badly that he went to the hospital. The others held the shooter while the fella who did the beating walked to find a cop.
Folks are regularly shot and stopped with .22s, .25s and .32s but in violent encounters these rounds are much less likely to stop someone (or slow them down enough that a "stopping shot" can be delivered) than with more useful defensive calibers.
Sure a few head shots with a .22 can most certainly stop someone. It'll kill a cow. But the cow is standing still and will likely not be shooting back. As Mr. Wilson of Foster City found out, it's hard to shoot a fella in the head when he's kicking your behind and that's after you've shot him in the belly.
tipoc
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Read carefully the first sentance in the quoted part, the animals were already shot or sick and suffering. He didnt hunt them with the gun.
My brother did this with a .22, been dead awhile now but we still miss him.
A .22 isnt the end all round, but it isnt something to nonchalantly dismiss if aimed at ya.
My friend Mike died from a tiny little spider bite on his ankle.....
orionengnr
New member
^^^
And spiders are easier to conceal than a .25
And spiders are easier to conceal than a .25
Ah! but I did read it carefully. He argued that the .22 was an effective round for self defense because he was able to kill a wounded elk with it by shooting it in the head. Several others have argued that the .22 is an effective round for self defense because they could walk up to a cow and shoot it in the head and the cows died. Others have argued that the .22 is an effective round for self defense because a friend or relative was accidentally shot with a .22 and died as a result. None of these things have any bearing though on whether the gun is as effective as other choices for self defense.
By the way a good many people have hunted deer and even bear with a .22l.r. at close range and with one well placed shot to the head or spine the .22 can take game. But beyond short distances and with anything other than head shots it becomes a poor tool for hunting anything but small game. Other rounds will be more useful.
No one here has argued that the .22 is something that can be "nonchalantly dismissed", least of all me. I have argued that it is a very dangerous round and I indicated why I thought so earlier. But for self defense, it is a poor choice. Unless you have no other option.
tipoc
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I know the odds, but this is a true story of one defensive shooting. A coal miner on route to work one night was confronted with the narrow road blocked by a vehicle. Three men armed with at least one hunting knife, jerked his truck door open, saying they were going to kill him. Other vehicles with witnesses observed the occurrence. The victim armed with a Raven 25 ACP fired killing one attacker, putting another down wounded, while the third jumped a fence as he fled the scene. Just one account, but it doesn’t get more humble than a Raven 25, still it worked.
30-30remchester
New member
TIPOC, I have indeed shot many deer and elk with a 22 handgun as stated. However my post is being taken wrong. I apologize for being unclear. I am not recommending a 22 for self defense. I was just stating some actual experence, letting everyone know what penatration the 22 was capable of. An interesting acticle about 22 penatration is on "SNIPERSHIDE". If this mans data is correct, then it should make some of us rethink the lethality of the 22. I am not advocating a 22 for big game hunting. As stated all animals were already hurt and shots at very close range. However penatration is a vital key to lethality. Because most debate on forums is just that, debate, few have much actual experence, and lets hope nobody has vast experence shooting 2 legged creatures. I think that hunting situations can come close to duplicating life threating situations. I have well over 100 projectiles recovered from game, and it does help in terminal studies.
Looking at a couple boxes of mini mags I have the .22lr 40gr get up to 1235 fps while the 36 grain hollow points get up to 1260 fps. I know its a small round but anything moving at those speeds is deadly in my opinion. My carry and home defense gun is a smith wesson model 60 but to be honest I would feel perfectly safe if all I had was my henry lever action in .22lr
Would you agree with me that the purpose of a defensive firearm is to STOP an attacker, assailant, or whatever before he/she harms you?
Out of any 100 such scenarios, how many do you suppose would be stopped by pulling out a .25 auto? My guess is about 80% of them. I don't have any stats to support that number and you may not agree, but I think thats about right. I think about 80% of potential threats would mess their pants and haul a$$ forthwith. You use your own numbers, depending on what you think.
So, in my view a .25 auto is about an 80% stopper to begin with. A .45 is bigger and scarier, and 90% of BG's would probably split the moment they saw it, so its a better stopper, even before any shooting is required. Again if you don't agree with my numbers, use your own.
By my numbers you may have to actually shoot in 20% of the potential threatening situations with a .25 auto, but only in 10% of them with a .45.
If it does come down to shooting, how effective will the .25 be? I think we can agree that it will certainly not be as effective as the .45. But I think 8 or 9 rounds of .25 auto at close range would stop at least half of the remaining threats.
I think the 45 would stop almost all of them.
So the way I see it the 25 auto is about a 90% STOPPER. The 45 is about a 100% STOPPER. (Well, maybe just 99.9%. Nothing is 100% effective.)Your numbers may be different, but obviously the .45 is more effective and if you can carry one for SD you should. But you probably can't conceal it, and if you can't, can you carry it? If you can't you'll have to find something you can conceal or go without. This thread is about 22's and 25's and thats what I'm responding to, but these days you can buy 380's that are as small as most .25's. I'd say get one of those; I did when the Kel-Tec P3AT became availiable. But before that I carried a Beretta 950 BS .25 auto for a lot of years, because it was the only gun I could find that was truly concealable.... and it would stop a lot of threats. My numbers say about 90%. What would yours say?
Out of any 100 such scenarios, how many do you suppose would be stopped by pulling out a .25 auto? My guess is about 80% of them. I don't have any stats to support that number and you may not agree, but I think thats about right. I think about 80% of potential threats would mess their pants and haul a$$ forthwith. You use your own numbers, depending on what you think.
So, in my view a .25 auto is about an 80% stopper to begin with. A .45 is bigger and scarier, and 90% of BG's would probably split the moment they saw it, so its a better stopper, even before any shooting is required. Again if you don't agree with my numbers, use your own.
By my numbers you may have to actually shoot in 20% of the potential threatening situations with a .25 auto, but only in 10% of them with a .45.
If it does come down to shooting, how effective will the .25 be? I think we can agree that it will certainly not be as effective as the .45. But I think 8 or 9 rounds of .25 auto at close range would stop at least half of the remaining threats.
I think the 45 would stop almost all of them.
So the way I see it the 25 auto is about a 90% STOPPER. The 45 is about a 100% STOPPER. (Well, maybe just 99.9%. Nothing is 100% effective.)Your numbers may be different, but obviously the .45 is more effective and if you can carry one for SD you should. But you probably can't conceal it, and if you can't, can you carry it? If you can't you'll have to find something you can conceal or go without. This thread is about 22's and 25's and thats what I'm responding to, but these days you can buy 380's that are as small as most .25's. I'd say get one of those; I did when the Kel-Tec P3AT became availiable. But before that I carried a Beretta 950 BS .25 auto for a lot of years, because it was the only gun I could find that was truly concealable.... and it would stop a lot of threats. My numbers say about 90%. What would yours say?