.22LR, .25 Auto effectiveness throughout history

In a defensive situation I don't care about it being lethal, I just want to make the bad thing go away, or stop long enough for me to exit.
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I'm not a fan of the .22lr or the .25 as a SD round. There are better options out there. With that, either one can certainly work well as a SD round.

Case in point, I work with a gentleman who was accidentally shot with a .22lr at point blank range. He said that he felt like he got stung and grabbed his chest and said "Something just stung me.", staggered and then dropped.

The shock of being hit didn't drop him immediately and as he said, he wasn't aware he'd been hit, but it did drop him. If he was shot in a SD mode, that would certainly have allowed a person to make a safe exit.

By the way, he bullet didn't hit any thing major and he made a full recovery.

Again, neither is the best choice for SD, but either will do the job with proper shot placement.
 
In the day of the LCP and P3AT sub $300 mouse guns, I don't see that it matters, anyway. Yes, the .22lr or .25 ACP can kill, but my mouse guns in that size are long locked away and will probably never leave the house again.

I have to believe a large hammer hurts more than a small hammer.
 
The Iceman Tapes...... He killed guys with a .22, .38, knife, blunt objects and barehands.... Hell he even shot an ice cream man in the head with a crossbow 'to see if it'd work.' He was possibly a TRUE sociopath. The guy "worked" Christmas Eve, went home and put his kid's new bike together. And opened presents the next morning with his family like any regular guy. For all his sickness and faults, he was the epitome of a professional. If you haven't seen this interview rent/buy it. The words "eeriely calm" describe him perfectly.
 
im thinking alot of you guys are mis under estimating the .22 lr... the .22 is notorious to bounce around inside the body when it hits bones... there been cases were a bullet enters a leg and gets pulled out in a different part of the body.... me personally i rather carry my 9mm with sd rounds but the .22 is known to do wat its supposed to do...
 
EddieDaGreat said:
im thinking alot of you guys are mis under estimating the .22 lr... the .22 is notorious to bounce around inside the body when it hits bones... there been cases were a bullet enters a leg and gets pulled out in a different part of the body.... me personally i rather carry my 9mm with sd rounds but the .22 is known to do wat its supposed to do...
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Got any facts to back that claim? ..Is it similiar to how a .22LR bounces around the brain like a pinball because it doesn't have enough energy to penetrate both sides of the skull? :rolleyes:
 
Had a small auto stuck in my gut by the guy sitting at the next bar stool.

I didn't feel like scoffing at his choice of cartridge.

As with any tool if used appropriately it does its job.
 
The 22lr has a nasty habit of being easily deflected.For example Pres Reagan was shot with one It went into the chest cavity , hit a rib and bounced back and punctured his lung.Autopsies of those shot with a 22 are difficult because the bullet , after entering , can be almost anywhere.
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There is nothing unique about the characteristic of being deflected off of bone and ending up somewhere else other than on the original entry trajectory. It happens with every caliber. If a twig can deflect a .308 sniper's shot, then nobody should be surprised that a bone could deflect a .22 lr inside the body (and any other round).

People seem to like to mention this deflection issue as if the deflection of a bullet somehow makes it more lethal. People talk about .22 lr rounds bouncing around inside the chest cavity and inside the cranium. In terms of the chest cavity and body, "bouncing" around can just as easily result in being deflected away from vital structures as being deflected into vital structures. In fact, if you are aiming at a vital zone, then deflection can be the absolutely worst thing that can happen to your shot.

So how about all this bouncing around? One almost gets the impression that a .22 lr round gains momentum with deflection as if a deflected round travels further and can hit more organs than a round that isn't deflected. Nothing could be further from the truth. Deflection is detrimental to the bullet's penetrative abilities as energy is tranferred from the bullet to the bone when the bone changes the trajectory of the bullet.

The bullet that hit Reagan was indeed deflected, but it only had 6" of travel inside the body (3 before and 3 after deflection). Had the entry trajectory been different, the round very well may have been deflected out of the body as easily as into the body.
http://encyclopedia.gwu.edu/gwencyclopedia/index.php?title=President_Reagan_Shooting

Note that the .22 lr round that hit Brady did not bounce around inside the skull.
http://cytowic.net/Selected_Articles/Brady/brady.html

A .22 lr round may indeed deflect off of bones. This can and does happen with all calibers. However, the notion of "bouncing around," is just silly. While possible, it would be the rarer exception for a round to "bounce" more than once off of bones, but "bouncing around" implies that it happens and apparently with quite some regularity. That simply isn't the case with .22 lr or any other caliber.

As for the effectiveness of the .22 lr througout history, causing deaths does not indicate effictiveness. Nasopharyngitis kills nearly 1000 people a year (known) and has been around probably as long as people have. However, the long history of deaths is meaningless in regard to it being effective. In the US alone, nasopharyngitis results in 75-100 million doctor's visits. Sure, it can be lethal, but lethality is extremely rare. .22 lr can be lethal as well, but a lot more people walk (not carried) into emergency rooms with .22 lr gunshot rooms than probably any other caliber. Reagan did.
 
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I don't have a link to the story, . . . but a couple decades ago, . . . and I think the guy was an Arnold Swartzy body builder, . . . in Columbus, Ohio, . . . there was an attempted robbery where the robber didn't make out too well.

I remember for sure that the robber shot the guy either 2 or 3 times, and it was in the back, . . . with a .25 auto.

The guy got mad then, . . . took the .25 from the robber, . . . and seriously deformed his face with the butt of the gun.

We all laughed about it as the robber went to the hospital with some serious if not life threatening injuries (and stayed a while), . . . and the guy he shot had the .25 bullets picked out of his back in the ER, . . . treated and released.

That was when I lost all my hankering for a .25 forever.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Have we covered all the cliches yet? Let's see....

- "Shot placement is key"...check
- "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"...check
- "A .22 in your pocket beats a .45 left at home"...check

Hmmm...I don't see "It's better than a pointy stick" yet.

Am I missing anything else?;)
 
I spoke to a new neighbor the other day about her work as a nurse in the local city hospital. I asked her about some of the worst stuff she saw and surprisingly it was when she dealt with a woman with gunshot wound to the head. She said the bullet was lodged in this woman's forehead w/o penetrating so I assumed it must be a .25 round. They proceeded cutting off her clothing against the protests of the patient, and low and behold wads of cash were coming out everywhere. I don't know of any other round that is so ineffective.
 
There must be some reason for all the .25 stories about inadequate penetration. The only thing I can figure out is that people were using older guns with corroded/shot out barrels, or they are lying. My personal observations over many years are that the .25 auto, fired from a gun in good repair, has excellent penetration.
Many (possibly all) handgun calibers have been known to fail to penetrate a skull. These failures are the exception, rather than the norm.
The fact is that macho guys, "experts," instructors, cops, etc. have been telling people that .22s and .25s (and .32s) just don't work. The problem is that these calibers have been working for over 100 years anyway. While they aren't the best things for defense, they are still some of the smallest guns made. To this day, no one has made a .32 or .380 as small as a Browning .25 or a Bernardelli .25/.22. It's impossible to do so.
Most handgun calibers are not "instant one-shot stoppers," so the ultra small guns are still viable. Nothing short of a central nervous system shot can instantly incapacitate consistently.
 
I haven't read many of the replies. My take on the ideal concealed carry pistol is: 1) You have to have one. 2) It must be affordable. 3) It must be concealable. For many folks that comes down to a .25 or .22.
I'll add: Any gun to be useful must be in the hands of someone who actually shoots and practices with it occasionally. A .22 is far and away more affordable to shoot and infinitely more likely to be practiced with.
And, the biggie in my theory: (drum roll please) No one, even dumb bad guys, wants to be shot with anything regardless of caliber. Most defensive scenarios involve the potential victim defending himself by simply producing a gun and the attacker flees. I believe the mere presence of a gun in the hands of someone willing to use it for legitimate defense is a very effective deterrent. Yes, I'm sure many will disagree with me, that's OK, I respect the other opinions. Three times in my life I have had to produce a gun against the possibility of my life being taken. All three times I produced a .22 pistol and the potential attackers fled quickly. Not a final clincher argument, I agree. But I'm still here to tell the story and that is where I stand with little pistol out of sight.
 
Bill -

Great points, I love the little Colt vest pocket .25 ACP pistols (own two of them), you can carry/stash them anywhere.
 
Have we covered all the cliches yet? Let's see....

- "Shot placement is key"...check
- "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"...check
- "A .22 in your pocket beats a .45 left at home"...check

Hmmm...I don't see "It's better than a pointy stick" yet.

Am I missing anything else? ;)
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You missed one cliché that has already been used...
- "Mafia/CIA/KGB/MI5/Mossad/(insert arbitrary elite spy agency or military counter-intelligence unit name) assassins prefer it because it's so quiet"... check ;)
 
Pres Reagan was shot with one
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The sixth and final bullet ricocheted off the side of the limousine and hit the president in his left underarm, grazing a rib and lodging in his lung, stopping nearly an inch from his heart.[
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Penetration was good even out of a short barrel, the 22 he used was supposed to blow up as they were varminter rounds. If the 22 had reached the velocity needed regan may not have survived.

It had been loaded with six "Devastator"-brand .22LR cartridges, which contained small lead azide explosive charges designed to explode on contact. The rounds were not manufactured in the U.S.; any bullet which contained actual explosives would have been classified as an illegal explosive device under U.S. federal law at the time that Hinckley purchased them. All six bullets failed to explode.
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I say the 22 performed great here, if it had hit regan without the richochet who can tell what it would have done as far as damage.

I see the 22 as the round that changed Americas gun laws, a 22.....lead to the brady bill gun bans etc. a 22 something to think about next time you fondle the 500 magnum :)
 
Don’t know why the .25 doesn’t get any respect at all. I don’t know anyone actually shot by one, but I have one and it delivers a respectable hole downrange (penetration-wise) and a lot of noise at the launch.

I do have a good friend who used to carry one in her purse while she was in nursing school who was accosted by a BG in a dark mall parking lot one night and he quickly exited the scene when she produced the .25. So, in cases like this, a .25 is as good as any (of course, an airsoft would have worked, too, I guess ;)).

My .25 is a Titan and I’ve kept it for the past 20 years or so for three main reasons; 1.) It has, so far, been 100% reliable, 2.) It has been remarkably (and acceptably) accurate, and, 3.) I can’t get anything for it anyway:D.

FWIW, I have been shot by a .22 (ND to the R leg @ age 14 by an erstwhile friend). Not my most fun experience, but I did, after a makeshift bandage, manage to walk about a mile and a half home.

I don’t carry the .25 often at all, but I don’t feel bad when I do carry it.

Best,

Will
 
My .25 is a Titan and I’ve kept it for the past 20 years or so for three main reasons; 1.) It has, so far, been 100% reliable, 2.) It has been remarkably (and acceptably) accurate, and, 3.) I can’t get anything for it anyway.
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Wow....you have a Titan for the same reasons I do.... :D

Also, when loaded with European FMJ ammo (Fiocci or S&B), it will penetrate a 2x4 at 10 yards.....seems like that would leave an ouchie in soft tissue....
 
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