.22LR, .25 Auto effectiveness throughout history

when the 25 acp was popular the gun press was full of storiies about its failure to perform. there were also a lot of assertions that the 22 rimfire had killed more people than etc. Oddly enough, now that the 25 auto is way back on the back burner, the stories getting told are frequently about the instant stops it has accomplished.
It would be hard to sort out any facts on the subject because much of the sturm und drang was just blowhards trying to blow harder than the other blowhards.
 
I'll take the 25acp over the 22lr in a pocket pistol. The ballistics normally cited for 22lr are from a rifle, or at least a target pistol, not a pocket pistol. 25acp fmj rounds can penetrate vitals and tend to be more reliable with their rimless centerfire design. I've seen some cheap 25 autos that were very reliable. Not my first choice in a defensive arm, but they serve a purpose.
 
I remember Baby Brownings from the 60s being very reliable. Recent ball loads have been less so. I found that the CCI Blazer ball and cci gold dot jhp are reliable in this pistol. Both rounds have a visible crimp where most ball ammo does not. As a result, the prominent rim of the ejecting empty is prone to slam into the mouth of the case of the next round up. On top of that, several of the generic ball loads produce velocities of less than 600 fps. I set up to reload the cartridge and found that the Remington ball load became reliable when I applied a substantial crimp- a practice I follow with my reloads. The heavy crimp jumps the remington velocities from 690s to the low 700s.
Both the Hornady and Speer reloading manuals are pretty negative about reloading the cartridge saying the small case capacity will lead to wide velocity variations with small charge variations and that it would be very easy to double charge a case. Neither proves to be the case. Ball loads using a lee die set supplied dipper that throws 1.4 grains of bullseye are very consistent and there is no possible way the case will hold a double charge. I made a dipper for the 35 grain gold dot at the speer maximum of 1.7 grains and got good consistency with it also.

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It wouldn't surprise me at all if the .22 has killed more people than any other cartridge. I'm not saying it has, but it wouldn't surprise me. That's because its death toll would have to include:

1. deliberate use for self-defense, including when the .22 was used because nothing else was available. Taking into consideration that the .22 rimfire is the most common cartridge out there, and (at least in .22 Short form) has been around longer than any other cartridge still available.

2. Playing around and getting stupid with guns, when the .22 is also most likely to be used by beginners.

3. Didn't know it was loaded, see above.

Whether it's any good for self defense is moot when trying to decide if the .22 will kill, because the point of self defense is not killing; it is to stop the other guy RIGHT NOW. If the bad guy drops dead from the .22 shot but only after he's taken the gun from you and beaten you to death with it, he's still dead and the .22 is therefore still, by definition, deadly; but it sure wasn't a very good defense weapon!

I suppose fast cars and cigarettes are even deadlier, 'tho I haven't thought on trying to use them as defensive weapons. I'm trying to figure how that would work. "Here, smoke two packs of these a day for twenty years and come back to finish your robbery then." I don't think that's going to fly.
 
Lethal but not a fight stopper

I heard the same information years ago. As it was explained to me if the .22 round did penetrate into the body it tended to ricochet of everything it hit, and did a little damage to many different organs and possibly veins and or arties. True or not, who knows, but it makes sense to me.
 
No handgun cartridge can guarantee a stop unless a CNS hit is made. A small caliber can do this almost as well as a larger one.
A heart shot is not always immediately disabling, nor is a lung, liver, kidney shot.
Pain will stop most people from doing whatever it is that got them shot. Fear of dying will make people stop most of the time. A good CNS shot will shut them down immediately.
 
When I was a big game guide all I was allowed to carry was a 22. I chose a pre war Colt Woodsman. I shot many deer and elk each year that had been wounded and was suffering. Most shots were at 10 yards or under. The 22 will completely penatrate an elks skull when shot broadside. Death was instantanious in nearly all cases after one shot.
 
30-30remchester: True....but a .22lr from a 4"+ barrel is a different creature than from a 2" barrel or less.....

Just sayin'.....
 
An awful lot of speculation and opinion, and vitually no experience. Who wants to be shot with a .22 or .25? Not me. Assassins have used the .22 with great success over the years. And a surprise shot to the face with a .25 will make someone look elsewhere immediately. A hit to the eye is probably instant death. A real killer with a .22 is to be feared infinitely more than some armchair hobbyist with a hand cannon.
 
Another reason for the large number of shootings with the .22 and .25. Both come in cheap guns. One of my friends a SWAT officer in a large city put it into perspective. A large portion of crimes are commmited by drug addicts to get money for a fix. If they have a Glock, Ruger, Beretta or whatever they can sell it for several hundred dollars. They can then buy a "pot metal" .22 or .25 to use to rob people with. The rest of the money goes for drugs. People don't usually care what kind of gun they are being robbed with. Rather a .22 or a .45 they don't want to be shot.
A few years back a nurse friend of mine told me of a terrible instance of the use of a .22. One of her friends was a nurse that visited the home bound to take care of them. She was waiting for a bus to give her a ride home. A junkie produced a small .22 to rob her. She gave up her wallet. When he saw that she only had around $10.00 on her he went into a rage and shot her. Known by some as "knee-capping". Messed her up really bad. Never under or over estimate the power of a handgun. Holes through vital parts of the human anatomy do nasty things. Even little holes. Think of an ice pick to the back of the head in the base of the brain. The "primitive brain" contols breathing and the like. Also connects to the spine. Or any bullet through the
eyeball and it's all over. Fast, multiple, well placed rounds from a .22 or .25 will end things fast.
 
BTW I saw a special on the attempted murder of Ronald Reagan. In the special they made it very clear they almost lost Reagan because they had a hell of a time finding the bullet because of the erratic course it took. No disrespect to the dead but Robert Kennedy was also done in by a .22 with multiple head shots. Nasty but they work.
 
Years back, decades actually, someone wrote that the .22 L.R. round has likely killed more people than any other. Over the years this somehow became, or morphed into, it for sure has killed more than any other round. No one has kept any figures on it. No one actually knows for sure, but it is quite possible that it has.

For two reasons I think; it is the most common round used internationally and particularly here. The other reason being that people underestimate it. It is extremely common to hear of people being shot while "fooling" around with a .22. Cuz it's "just a .22". Another factor involved is that the paraffin lube used on the .22 now and in the past, promotes infections like nobodies business and for many, many years a good many folks died of these infections particularly in places where doctors were scarce and in the years before antibiotics. It often took and takes days to die. Another factor is this....22 handguns are about the cheapest gun out there. It's been that way for years. A good many folks, who know no better, get a .22 cuz it's cheap and go and shoot someone with it.

The .22 is a useful round for many things but is not so good at self defense. Oh in a pinch it'll do. An ice pick can be handy in a fight but most knife fighters would take something heavier and longer with them to a fight. Somehow with the .22 some folks think it'll do ya, but ask yourself this...

Why do no law enforcement agencies anywhere issue it for carry in a standard sidearm for their officers?

Why do no armies anywhere on earth issue it to line troops as their sidearm or in a rifle? After all if the .22 is good for defense in a handgun ain't it even better for that in a rifle? and if so why not give it to all the soldiers?

If, as a former "big game guide" says...
I shot many deer and elk each year that had been wounded and was suffering. Most shots were at 10 yards or under. The 22 will completely penatrate an elks skull when shot broadside. Death was instantanious in nearly all cases after one shot.
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If the above is true why not recommend that we all hunt elk with a .22?

If only the "well placed shot" can guarantee a stop than why the .45acp? or the .357 Mag? or the .38 Spl.? Why the 30-06? Or the 30-30?

Could it be that there is something to the idea that a larger, heavier round can do more damage?

Just a few questions for those who feel the .22 is as good as anything else in a fight.

tipoc
 
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I don't think anyone here is saying a 22 or a 25 is just as good as something larger. We're just saying the small stuff souldn't be dismissed as toys.
 
Worthless?

I have a nine shot, High Standard, .22 relvolver that has become the gun I take plinking the most. There are many reasons for this. One big one is that rimfire ammo is still a bargain to shoot, Another reason is that I am getting pretty good with it.

I am now able to consistently hit soda can size targets at twenty five yards off hand. Trust me, this is a big deal for me. If I use a rest, dirt clods at one hundred yards are easy targets.

Here is my question.

I am out in the desert in the middle of nowhere and some jerk attempts to harm me. I have a .22 revolver with nine shots, am I completely SOL? If I can keep my wits about me, at defensive range, I know I could put all nine shots into someones face. Shouldn't that slow someone down?

I grew up on a small farm. I witnessed many cows drop to a single .22 shot to the noggin. Granted, the range was short and the conditions were perfect, but it is amazing to see a creature the size of a cow drop like a sack of potatos from one tiny bullet. My dad made sure that us kids witnessed this at least once. He wanted to impress upon us that damage that even a small round can do.

It worked.
 
BTW I saw a special on the attempted murder of Ronald Reagan. In the special they made it very clear they almost lost Reagan because they had a hell of a time finding the bullet because of the erratic course it took.
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This is nothing particularly unique to a .22, but a comon issue with bullet wounds.

Reagan almost died a second time due to infection.

No disrespect to the dead but Robert Kennedy was also done in by a .22 with multiple head shots. Nasty but they work.
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Robert Kennedy was shot once in the head and twice in the torso. Supposedly all of the shots were fired at extremely short range.

I don't think anyone here is saying a 22 or a 25 is just as good as something larger. We're just saying the small stuff souldn't be dismissed as toys.
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Who here is dismissing the calibers as toys?
 
As already pointed out, I'll take chances with a 25 in my pocket any day over a large cal that can't be packed. Living in Florida and dressing in swim trunks and t-shirts puts a different perspective on comfortable concealment. Sure, fanny packs are seen here but it's a dead giveaway that you are concealing...something I don't want anyone to be thinking. The real question here in Florida about 22 & 25 cals should be how often do you want to carry...most of the time or some of the time?
 
Too many people think that because one round can do the job better the other round can't do the job at all.
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And too many people think they are going to get more than one shot off in a defensive situation or that their shots will be extremely well place.

As already pointed out, I'll take chances with a 25 in my pocket any day over a large cal that can't be packed. Living in Florida and dressing in swim trunks and t-shirts puts a different perspective on comfortable concealment. Sure, fanny packs are seen here but it's a dead giveaway that you are concealing...something I don't want anyone to be thinking.
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Here we have the classic difference of "can't" and "won't." You won't carry anything larger because you won't wear a pair of shorts with better pockets or maybe with a decent belt. You won't wear a t-shirt that will properly conceal a larger gun. Obviously, you aren't swimming with a .25 in your pocket so why are you bothering with wearing swim trunks?
 
Obviously, you aren't swimming with a .25 in your pocket so why are you bothering with wearing swim trunks?
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Because he might get embarassed and/or arrested if he goes swimming without his swim trunks?.... :rolleyes:



:D
 
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