22 for self defense?
- Thread starter reptocarl
- Start date
I cannot speak to the effectiveness of the 22 LR from a handgun as it pertains to immediate incapacitate or death against human enemies.
What I know is this:
Our own CIA and it's for-runner the OSS used 22LRs to kill enemies with suppressed pistols at one time.
And I have a very good friend who is retired from Reno PD who attended many an autopsy and investigated many murders in his days as a cop.
He tells me that a LOT of the kills were made with 22 LR from handguns.
So the ability of the lowly 22 to kill is not in question. Only it's ability to "save your life fast enough."
I would agree that the points of impact would make the largest difference in shots that wound and shots that kill.
Any gun is better than no gun.
And a well placed 22 is better than most poorly placed 44 mags.
That doesn't mean I would recommend a 22 as a first choice, but if that what you have, or that's what you can shoot well it sure beats a rock in a sock. There may be people out there that can shoot a 22 well, but not anything else. To them I would say a 22 is the best thing they can carry.
The shooter is far more important that what gun he shoots.
If you can have both skill and more power, by all means take it.
But if skill is given up to gain more power I recommend sticking with skill.
What I know is this:
Our own CIA and it's for-runner the OSS used 22LRs to kill enemies with suppressed pistols at one time.
And I have a very good friend who is retired from Reno PD who attended many an autopsy and investigated many murders in his days as a cop.
He tells me that a LOT of the kills were made with 22 LR from handguns.
So the ability of the lowly 22 to kill is not in question. Only it's ability to "save your life fast enough."
I would agree that the points of impact would make the largest difference in shots that wound and shots that kill.
Any gun is better than no gun.
And a well placed 22 is better than most poorly placed 44 mags.
That doesn't mean I would recommend a 22 as a first choice, but if that what you have, or that's what you can shoot well it sure beats a rock in a sock. There may be people out there that can shoot a 22 well, but not anything else. To them I would say a 22 is the best thing they can carry.
The shooter is far more important that what gun he shoots.
If you can have both skill and more power, by all means take it.
But if skill is given up to gain more power I recommend sticking with skill.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Certainly- no one should give anyone the impression that a .22 won't kill or maim. Making statements that can be construed as such, is irresponsible.
Now- the only way ANY handgun is going to immediately physically incapacitate is with a central nervous system shot. A CNS shot with a .22 works about as well as any other handgun caliber. To think otherwise is deluding yourself.
I stated that .22LR would more than likely be less effective for self defense than pepper spray or mace, for the reasons people have been arguing above; a .22LR can't reliably incapacitate someone fast enough to meet the lightning quick challenges that a SD situation usually raises. Mace or pepper spray can blind an attacker until one has time to flee and works immediately.
I'm not arguing that .22LR isn't lethal, but in order for it to be reliably effective you would need direct shots to the head, spine, heart, or an artery, and I don't believe anyone would be able to deliberately pull that off in an adrenaline pumping, fast paced attack.
To answer the original question though, I would personably be concerned with feeding of the cartridge over which brand or type I chose; I've had some mixed results feeding things through my automatic .22. Go to the store and grab 2 or three boxes of different stuff (quality stuff like CCI, avoid things like Remington thunderbolt for this application) and find what cycles best through your particular gun. That's the ammunition to use for carry (if you must use a .22)
zincwarrior
New member
I will second CCI as your first test on the reliability train.
Each .22 is different. We found that our Buckmarks have a passioned dislike for anything Winchester related. CCI standards worked well and I have heard good things about Minimags as far as reliability.
Once you get the round firm then the next step is the pistol.
Buckmarks can be finicky like any other .22. Clean it religiously. make sure the firing pin (I call it more a finger guillotine then a pin and that little bugger has made me bleed several times), is absolutely clear and clean. Don't be afraid to strip the firearm to get to it. they get dirty very quickly.
Each .22 is different. We found that our Buckmarks have a passioned dislike for anything Winchester related. CCI standards worked well and I have heard good things about Minimags as far as reliability.
Once you get the round firm then the next step is the pistol.
Buckmarks can be finicky like any other .22. Clean it religiously. make sure the firing pin (I call it more a finger guillotine then a pin and that little bugger has made me bleed several times), is absolutely clear and clean. Don't be afraid to strip the firearm to get to it. they get dirty very quickly.
zincwarrior
New member
I have to agree. Pertinent to the OP the wife and I have buckmarks. I can technically shoot a buckmark faster than my M&P Pro into the same target at short range, but at a certain speed the springs/slide don't react quickly enough and the pistol jams about 35% of the time (more if not clean). This is a replicable test (its a blast to finish a session by emptying the mag at 6-7 round per second firing and both the wife and I will do it
). However I can shoot the M&P almost as fast, and it does not jam.
So if I could do a Bill Drill in 1.5 vs. 2.5 -.22 vs. 9mm, the .22 is likely to jam (double feed to be precise) partway through, and to a level that cannot be easily cleared.
You can say the same thing about the 327 round. It is much better served in a longer barrel.
As for the 22 for SD did no one read the article in the latest American Rifleman magazine about the Colt Woodsman autos. The claim made by some famous author about being able to stop a boxer before he crossed the ring and do it with a 22 auto? I don't have the magazine now. I gave it to my buddy to read. But I bet someone here remembers the article.
I personally have no problems with a 22 for SD. Its not a first choice but I do not feel undergunned with one.
MANual_puller
New member
Are we limited to rimfire .22? I carry a 22TCM pistol a lot. Very easy to operate, very little recoil, much better performance. Factory ammunition runs a shade over 2000 fps from a 5" barrel and reloading it like I do makes for better than that.
Did I really read this right? Any .22 is better than any handgun or shotgun for a SD Situation?...
Sorry,but that's a grocery cart full of baloney.
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Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Watching folks shooting and my own shooting of 9mm, with a modicum of practice for the average person, recoil and aiming are not a problem.
Let's not go off into silliness again - as I cautioned before.
Let's not go off into silliness again - as I cautioned before.
Onward Allusion
New member
It's ok, I suppose. Gotta load with rounds made for short barrels. 8 rounds of 22 Mag from a 941 is nothing to sneeze at.
TheGunGeek
New member
Another vote for CCI Mini Mags, as they seem to have lowest failure to fire instances. My primary concern would be this potential failure in rimfire ammo, and CCI is much more reliable. The ammo is pretty cheap, so take advantage of the this and practice a lot with your Buckmark until your'e bullseye accurate, and then add in followup shot speed while maintaining the accuracy. Good luck and happy shooting.
I took my daughter's P22 out yesterday and fired 100 round of Thunderbolts. I wasn't surprised that the gun functioned 100% but I was surprised that the Remington Thunderbolts did too. I haven't had any issues with this brand but my experience with them is limited to one brick, while others say they are horrible.
Actually I've had better overall function from Thunderbolt than any rimfire cartridge Remington makes. It's the Golden long rifle I've had an inordinately high number of misfires with, from known reliable rifles. And to further confuse the matter, Remington's high speed short HP has worked pretty good from several old 22 semiautos I owned marketed as S-L-LR rifles.
When the stars line up, and the entrails are favorable, a single .22LR will stop about anything, DRT.
HOWEVER, when this doesn't happen, and that is often, the .22LR doesn't do a lot of the kind of damage that stops people. Kills them, yes, often. STOPS them, not so much.
The thing with the .22 is that for all the successes we hear about, there are volumes of failures we don't hear about. All the stories about how poachers kill deer with .22LR are based on facts, but one of the facts left out of the stories is how often a deer is shot, and lost.
If all you have is a .22 pistol, you aren't defenseless, not even remotely, but you ARE in a position of having a deadly weapon that is not a reliable fight stopper.
CCI Mini Mags are good quality ammo, and I would use them over any "bulk pack" stuff.
One fellow I knew, a retired State Trooper, chose a Ruger .22LR pistol (mark I) as his home defense gun. As it happened, he was an expert shot with it, and could "burst fire" and cut the eyes out of a silhouette target in about one second. His reasoning was that if nerve/brain damage from the bullets didn't stop someone, blinding them ought to at least slow them down...
Can't say I would recommend that, but it did seem to make sense to an impressionable youngster at the time..
HOWEVER, when this doesn't happen, and that is often, the .22LR doesn't do a lot of the kind of damage that stops people. Kills them, yes, often. STOPS them, not so much.
The thing with the .22 is that for all the successes we hear about, there are volumes of failures we don't hear about. All the stories about how poachers kill deer with .22LR are based on facts, but one of the facts left out of the stories is how often a deer is shot, and lost.
If all you have is a .22 pistol, you aren't defenseless, not even remotely, but you ARE in a position of having a deadly weapon that is not a reliable fight stopper.
CCI Mini Mags are good quality ammo, and I would use them over any "bulk pack" stuff.
One fellow I knew, a retired State Trooper, chose a Ruger .22LR pistol (mark I) as his home defense gun. As it happened, he was an expert shot with it, and could "burst fire" and cut the eyes out of a silhouette target in about one second. His reasoning was that if nerve/brain damage from the bullets didn't stop someone, blinding them ought to at least slow them down...
Can't say I would recommend that, but it did seem to make sense to an impressionable youngster at the time..
Bill DeShivs
New member
Bongo Boy- your post is also very irresponsible. You make it sound as if a .22 is a toy. It isn't.