147 grain 9mm smack down

parasite, My wife and I just started shooting together the past half year. Prior to this she had never shot a pistol, rifle, or shotgun before. She became interested because of her desire to be able to protect herself from criminal assault. She has now practiced pistol shooting enough that she really enjoys doing it and no longer only sees it only for a means of self defense; however, she still is most interested in honing her shooting skills for self defense reasons. Interestingly enough, other women she knows, those who had never before been interested in firearms, are now also showing an interest in pistol shooting for self defense. Perhaps they will come to enjoy it as a sport as well. Forty some years ago, when we were just dating, my future wife declined offers to shoot. She'd accompany me, but she would not herself shoot. Times have changed, and my wife is adapting to those changes. Criminal incidents that happen all too often, incidents which police can't or won't control - see Chicago - have influenced my wife to the point that she is preparing herself for having to use a pistol for self defense. And I am both pleased as well as proud that my wife has made this decision. The alternative simply isn't acceptable. And yes, she does want to know if the ammunition we have will likely kill somebody based on her shot placement.
 
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I switched from the warp-speed 127-gr. +P+ Winchester Ranger load to the 147-gr. standard pressure Federal HST after noting that the performance was nearly identical, but the Ranger load recoils like a .40 S&W, while the HST load recoils like a 115-gr. FMJ practice load.
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The above is me, exactly! I went that route.

Whist this is a basic self defense thread, yes? Let me expand a little on this.

I carry a Ge4Glock19, it has 16 rounds of 147g Ranger T up. In using 147g, all kinds, reloads, factory hard ball, picked up a little cheaper, very accurate, hits to same point of aim as my Ranger T, if I have to shoot a criminal, trying to do me or mine harm, the lack of recoil allows faster back on target, more bullets in the bad guy, in a shorter time frame.

"More is better, always" I coined that phrase many moons ago, nothing has changed my mind since. It means rounds in gun/or bullets in target.

The pistol works, first time, all the time! That is important.
 
All the talk about over penetration is like flying saucers. Everyone talks about it but nobody has ever seen it. In my 9mm I carry Buffalo Bore +P+ 147 grain and over penetration from a hand gun is the least of my worries.
 
Many are judging their choice purely by gel testing. In the real world, things can be and are frequently different. Anyone that has issues with recoil shooting a 124 gr. +P load needs to be practicing a lot more. Remember, that before around 1990 when SAAMI lowered the pressure rating of the 9mm, the 124 & 147 gr. +P loads would have been standard pressure loads. What you're getting today with standard pressure ammo is a watered down version of what the 9mm once was until you move up to +P. If you want to know what recoil is really about, get some experience behind a Magnum revolver. 9mm +P is a pussycat by comparison. ;)
 
57K,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I choose 147gr because it performs very near identically to the 124 +P, with a recoil advantage. That is different than saying that the 124 +P bothers me, or is not controllable. I often carry a Glock 23. I carry heavy for caliber, 180gr rounds for that, too. Again, 165 isn't uncontrollable, but I prefer the control advantage. My impression is that this is probably a common theme among participants of this thread.

As for gel vs street results, Chuck Haggard, Dr Roberts, and someone I've spoken to locally who is affiliated with LE have each stated that ATK rounds (Federal HST and Speer Gold Dots) recovered from shootings look like they just fell off of promotional materials. Naturally, bone impact, hitting a jacket button, or other factors can cause deformation, but the theme is that they expand consistently with how they do in testing.

I am confident that the rounds I carry will do their job, provided I do mine.
 
RBid, I'm not familiar with Chuck Haggard, but Dr. (Dentist) Roberts, I am familiar with. He's one of the best known gelatin junkies. Some of his opinions make sense and he usually provides load recommendations based on FBI testing, but it's hard to take a guy seriously when because of gelatin tests, he recommends a 300 gr. XTP as the best defense choice in .44 Magnum. A bullet that's designed for controlled expansion and deep penetration on game. On a human target, I feel that load would be more likely to penetrate completely through the target with very little expansion. His opinion is based solely on gelatin tests, and in this example it shows how flawed that practice can be. The 147 gr. Standard Pressure JHP loads may look similar in gel tests, but a 124 gr. +P has both higher energy and momentum, the prime motivators for expansion and penetration. The 147 has a sectional density advantage and it's always been a good penetrator. Too good in it's early days when it overpenetrated and expanded poorly. IMO, I would only count on a 147 gr. JHP loaded to +P for reliable expansion. ;)
 
57K said:
RBid, I'm not familiar with Chuck Haggard, but Dr. (Dentist) Roberts, I am familiar with. He's one of the best known gelatin junkies. Some of his opinions make sense and he usually provides load recommendations based on FBI testing, but it's hard to take a guy seriously when because of gelatin tests, he recommends a 300 gr. XTP as the best defense choice in .44 Magnum. A bullet that's designed for controlled expansion and deep penetration on game. On a human target, I feel that load would be more likely to penetrate completely through the target with very little expansion. His opinion is based solely on gelatin tests, and in this example it shows how flawed that practice can be. The 147 gr. Standard Pressure JHP loads may look similar in gel tests, but a 124 gr. +P has both higher energy and momentum, the prime motivators for expansion and penetration. The 147 has a sectional density advantage and it's always been a good penetrator. Too good in it's early days when it overpenetrated and expanded poorly. IMO, I would only count on a 147 gr. JHP loaded to +P for reliable expansion. ;)
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Gelatin testing with a variety of standardized barriers is the only objective way to judge bullets. Judging by real-world shootings is next to impossible. Each target varies in fat content, bone density, distance, clothing, temperature, position, and other factors.

It's the same basic reason we judge car safety based on lab-controlled crash tests rather than real world crashes and medicine effectiveness based on experimental and control groups rather than just giving it to people. Consistency allows for objective comparative evaluation.
 
Let's take a 'raffle' on how many posts this thread hits...?

Seriously though, absent the sometimes rancorous nature that the passionate debate caliber/ballistic/performance threads generate, I will confess to these being a guilty pleasure of mine. It is one of those ironies of ballistic testing that they can be both the closest thing there is to being empirical while at the same time being the farthest (in that it's all dependent on the variations/variables involved in any given test...). It's so easy to "skew" the results either intentionally or not.

I still advocate the Hornady Critical Duty Line (*it assumes that one is using a full-length service pistol). Even from a 3.1'' barrel, however, it looks like the loss in FPS and overall performance is minimal.
 
if that is the case, I will add that a Dr. title means nothing in this area unless it is a PhD in physics or a MD. Dentist means absolutely nothing to me.
 
Yes, Dr Roberts is a dentist, Ronald Reagan was an actor, Arnold was a bodybuilder, Gaston made curtain rods, etc. The truth is that Dentist Roberts spends more time researching real world performance than the majority of people who reference that he's "not that kind of doctor". He has actually looked at rounds recovered from real world incidents. Most of us have not. It seems that the 'gelatin junkie' has a better idea of real world expansion than guys who don't take his word because they heard him referred to as a gelatin junkie.
 
Personally, I've listened to all the arguments dating back 35 years, 28 of them building and testing my own loads. I'm inclined to agree with wild cat mccane and pay attention to people who actually have doctorates in physics rather than a DDS sheepskin. Many of the IWBA types have spent many years justifying previous mistakes as is the case of Martin Fackler continually bashing reports of actual shootings reported on by M&S. Fackler is directly responsible for leading the FBI to 3 ammo failures. 1. the subsonic 147 gr. JHP in 9mm of the late 80s 2. the 10mm "Lite" that penetrated deeply and expanded poorly just like subsonic 9mm 3. the "medium velocity" .40 S&W that was little more than same song second verse from the 10mm "Lite". All of the choices were predicated on their performance in gelatin and proved to be failures on the street just as surely as a 300 gr. XTP would go right through you and not likely expand. Roberts is a disciple of Fackler's.

One thing Fackler can't and never will understand is how a load like the 125 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum proved to have such a great track record in the real world. I know something of barrier testing because it originated with the Texas DPS. You see, they don't subscribe to Fackler's novel notions and when they retired their .357 Magnum revolvers they did their own testing for it's replacement. Only 2 loads passed all of their testing through barriers into gelatin. The .357 SIG which they adopted and a 9mm 147 gr. JHP rated +P+ which they didn't adopt because of the possible bad press associated with a +P+ label. This all occurring while Fackler was trying to extract the thumb out of his ass. And while the 9mm 147 gr. subsonic JHPs proved to be dismal failures, CorBon developed a 147 gr. +P JHP load not much different form the +P+ load that passed the DPS testing where no .40 S&W or .45 ACP load passed all of their tests. But the FBI was busy being led down the rosy Fackler highway.

There is now research being done that is meaningful and helps conclude why that light and fast 125 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum has the best performance record in the history of law enforcement and it's being done by these folks:
http://www.btgresearch.org/wb.htm who ARE physicists with PHd's in physics, not MD's from med shool where they probably graduated in the lower half of their class and went on to doctor in the army, a dentist with no physics or engineering credentials or an aerospace engineer who states that 18" of penetration into ballistic gel is the DESIRED maximum depth. How many people do you know that are 18" thick from chest to back? I realize some of you guys are fairly new shooters. But when you've been shooting handguns for 35 years, it's likely you've seen a lot of ideas come and go. There's nothing new or magical about testing in 10% ordinance gelatin, rather, it's more likely that some of you are new to the concepts. ;)
 
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How many people do you know who are not 18" thick, if hit first in the upper arm, and then on an angle through the torso?
 
Relatively simple, Watson. How many people are shot through the arm into the chest vs. people who are shot COM, that's center of mass? That's why we train to shoot COM rather than practice shooting potentialities. Every combat professional on the planet teaches COM, not shooting for what-ifs. And still, is it 18" from the epidermis of the shoulder to the heart? Without a direct hit to the spinal column, what is the most vital organ to place your bullet into? ;)
 
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Really there is no way to guarantee that you round, even if it is the newest, best wunderbullet, will work when you need it.

I say pick one that performs well in anecdotal officer-involved shootings and in controlled ballistic testing, and be happy with it.
 
57K, of course we train for center mass, or center of available mass / best target.

However, unlike at the range, human targets are not so likely to stay still. They tend to move; they tend to do things such as point guns at us, too. Both combine to make a shot through the arm a fairly likely scenario. (This was something that happened, you may recall, in Miami in the Platt-Matix FBI incident.)

And no, every combat professional does not only teach COM. Some teach failure drills; some teach pelvic shots; some run drills where only small parts of the target are exposed.

I am not sure where you get your ideas.
 
57K,

Let's skip back a bit.

I commented that Roberts and others had referenced rounds recovered from real events looking like rounds pulled out of gel. What does dentistry or Fackler have to do with rounds recovered from an actual event? Where did I reference Roberts or his work in any other way?

In other words:

Roberts: "147gr HSTs recovered by a PD near me have looked just like they came off promotional material."

Critic: "That guy is a dentist."

What?
 
A good friend of mine, in Ontario Canada, spent 15 years as a Royal Marine Commando, then 7 years in the RUC in Belfast.

An incident he spoke to me about, it happened when his Patrol Buddy was a Soldier. His uniform indicated Para, but he was SAS.

Whilst in a Hospital (Most likely grabbing a Cup of Tea!) a young Nurse ran up to them, and said two men were robbing the Post Office.

Hearing heavy boots running, the Squaddie pulled his Browning Hi Power, stepped around a corner, two hand hold fired twice.

Ammo, Brit Sub Gun, two men down, one on his face, no movement, one on his back, one leg jerking like mad, eyes open, both rounds in and out.

Des said upper chest hits, range around 7m. The Soldier gave no statement, was not at the Autopsy.

I forget were the hits where, I think he said hits to the heart on one. It was a long time ago, we had this conversation.

Do I recommend Israeli black tip hard ball? No. Good sub gun ammo, carried by El Al security, and Consulate Officers, used to be Hi Powers, now Glock 19s/17s. Imagine one of those 124g bullets skipping around a tiled floor, at an Airport?

Never heard of those people going to Hollow Points.
 
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