10mm or 357 mag?

A warm .40 can push a 180gr to 1,200 fps in a 4" barrel, and 200gr over 1,150 fps. Add a longer barrel and you get more velocity.
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Where are you seeing these kind of #s? The only time I've seen #s anywhere close to this is loading for a large frame gun and going over SAAMI spec for length.
 
Both are excellent trail cartridges. Were I to choose, I'd go with a 10MM in a 1911A1 gun. 9 200 grain rounds at 1,200 FPS out of a 1911A1 gun would be damn hard to beat. A 1911A1 gun is very easy to carry & quick to battery.

A good second choice would a an "L" Frame-size gun (GP 100) loaded with 180 grain bullets at 1,200 FPS.

A good argument could be made for either.
 
mavracer said:
Where are you seeing these kind of #s? The only time I've seen #s anywhere close to this is loading for a large frame gun and going over SAAMI spec for length.
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In both instances I was comparing warm handloads (of mine). Both using 800x, one a G20 w/4.6" KKM shooting a 200gr WFNGC to 1,315 fps avg and the other using a G23 w/4.0" KKM shooting the same 200gr WFNGC to 1,152 fps average.

I'd suspect from a G29 w/KKM that the 10mm load above would be doing roughly 1250-1270 fps. Since that barrel length is almost identical to the G23, the 10mm has around a 100 fps advantage. That is why I was curious and asked what the extra ~100 fps will give as far as kill-ability, to which I say none at all.
 
Since handguns are marginal to poor bear defense, that 100 fps advantage might look pretty good in the field. One must also consider that the .40 operates at the top of its own pressure spectrum (it was designed that way), and the beefier 10mm pistols can be hot-rodded more if one sees fit to go into that area. The .40 is MORE PRACTICAL, as brass and ammo are more plentiful, and a person has to handload to take the 10mm to potential. That is the ONLY REAL advantage of the .40 over the 10mm. Once you decide to handload, the .40 is left behind, ballistically, in a significant way.
 
A good second choice would a an "L" Frame-size gun (GP 100) loaded with 180 grain bullets at 1,200 FPS.
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But Buffalo Bore ammo will do better than that.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps

And from a 5 inch..a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps

Not bad at all.

Deaf
 
I can't stand the crack sound that a 357 makes when you fire it.

Owned a nice Dan Wesson 15-2 for a lot of years and got rid of it.

10mm.
 
In both instances I was comparing warm handloads (of mine). Both using 800x, one a G20 w/4.6" KKM shooting a 200gr WFNGC to 1,315 fps avg and the other using a G23 w/4.0" KKM shooting the same 200gr WFNGC to 1,152 fps average.
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That's a good load, I would be interested as to what the actual pressure is. I understand what you're saying and respect the 40 as a woods gun for the lower 48 however even given your loads that is about 10% more velocity which with a non expanding bullet would equal about 10% more penatration. Sure most of the time it won't make any difference, but it might just make all the difference.
 
I can't stand the crack sound that a 357 makes when you fire it.
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What's that? Sorry I couldn't hear you, my left ear is still ringing from that time I fired off a single .357 round out of a snub 3 years ago with no ear protection.

I agree, it's a ferociously loud round. It's the reason I won't use it for carry or self defense anymore. Plenty of other handgun rounds that are fully capable of getting the job done without destroying my ears, at least what's left of them.
 
Sharpsdressed Man said:
Since handguns are marginal to poor bear defense, that 100 fps advantage might look pretty good in the field. One must also consider that the .40 operates at the top of its own pressure spectrum (it was designed that way), and the beefier 10mm pistols can be hot-rodded more if one sees fit to go into that area. The .40 is MORE PRACTICAL, as brass and ammo are more plentiful, and a person has to handload to take the 10mm to potential. That is the ONLY REAL advantage of the .40 over the 10mm. Once you decide to handload, the .40 is left behind, ballistically, in a significant way.
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I can understand that somebody might want all they can get velocity wise, no matter how much or how little. However, concerning pressures between the .40 and 10mm, both are even technically almost the same. According to SAAMI specs there is only 2,500 PSI difference between the two, and that's a pretty small margin.

To be clear, you have to handload ANY cartridge, not just the 10mm, to get the most out of it. You can't go to Walmart and buy maxed out 10mm, nor can you go there and buy maxed out .40 S&W, or 9mm, or .45 ACP, etc. By maxed out, I'm not just talking about pressure, but I'm talking about velocity since you can max out in pressure with rather low velocity or with rather high velocity depending on powder used.

By you saying the 10mm can significantly leave the .40 S&W behind ballistically, what do you consider significant? Just wondering. The reason I say that is because I agree that the 10mm is faster, but I don't think I would call it significantly faster. I still maintain that with equal length barrels, same bullet, and same powder, the 10mm isn't "significant" step up. Check this out:
6zvc.jpg


Just to use Longshot as an example, look at the numbers. The 10mm with "max" data (neither are loaded to true max) shows to be faster than the .40 S&W by almost 130 fps. See that the 10mm is coming from a longer 5" barrel, so if you were to shoot it from a 4" barrel, I'd guess the 10mm would lose at least 50 fps, maybe more. But look at the pressure, if you were to even out the pressure (by either dropping the 10mm or raising the .40), the difference between the two would decrease even further, and to me the resulting velocity is not significant. What's worse is that with both loads, I'm really getting around 1150 fps out of a 4" G23 but get around 1260 fps out of the 4.6" G20.
 
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Some may like to think (or hope?) that .40 S&W is to 10mm what .38 Special is to .357 Magnum, but it's simply not the case. .40cal is much, much closer to 10mm than .38 could ever be (to .357), and in a few different ways where it really matters.

.40 cal runs very nearly the same max pressure. (just a bit under)
.40 cal also uses an inherently stronger cartridge case... as the 10mm is compromise by the use of a large primer instead of a small primer which it should have had.

.38 Special runs like -HALF- the pressure of the .357 Magnum.
 
Another area where the 10mm edges greater than the .40 is with the use of heavier bullets. Simply, the 10mm has a greater ability to use 200 and 220gr bullets more easily, and with greater punch, than the .40. To some, that is significant enough to choose the 10mm. It might even be that area that gives it an edge over the .357, since it is cutting a bigger hole at the same time.
 
Sevens said:
Some may like to think (or hope?) that .40 S&W is to 10mm what .38 Special is to .357 Magnum, but it's simply not the case. .40cal is much, much closer to 10mm than .38 could ever be (to .357), and in a few different ways where it really matters.

.40 cal runs very nearly the same max pressure. (just a bit under)
.40 cal also uses an inherently stronger cartridge case... as the 10mm is compromise by the use of a large primer instead of a small primer which it should have had.

.38 Special runs like -HALF- the pressure of the .357 Magnum.
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Very good point, and it's one that most people brush over when they try to use that comparison, and like you said the .357 Mag runs at twice the pressure of the 38 Special. I also agree that .40 S&W brass is stronger than 10mm brass, despite "older" SAAMI ratings, and over the years I've noticed more issues with 10mm brass than with .40 S&W brass when using warmer handloads. I personally view the .40 S&W as a 40K PSI cartridge like the 357 Sig, and I'm sure it could handle more since it's structurally more sound than the 10mm, and there are some who push the 10mm well past 45-50K PSI for whatever reason.
 
Apples To Apples...

Just some numbers one of my friends and I got with his chronograph.

Same platform with barrel lengths as close as I could get them:

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Admittedly, I didn't have any Underwood 357 ammo (stuff seems hot).


And now some Oranges...
Changing Platforms:

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I prefer to conceal what I'm carrying, so usually it's a 3" 357 Mag. But if I feel the need, I'll step up to a 5" 1911 in 10 mm (easier to conceal than 6" 357 Mag).

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I've spent a lot of time with the 10mm and find it is extremely versatile. I use 135gr for predator hunting, 155gr Gold Dots from Underwood for defense, underwood 200gr XTP for deer, and 220gr flat nose hard cast for Hogs. I believe the 10mm is superior in all areas except availability.





 
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