10mm for self defense

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TruthTellers said:
Yes, it's effective, but that's not the sole factor we're relying on to stop a threat. We want the threat stopped, if the aggressor dies, the aggressor dies. It's irrelevant in relation to threat being stopped.
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And here I thought the notion of “stopping power” was dead.

So I should choose a more powerful cartridge not because it can kill any better than another cartridge, but because it is better at “stopping”?

“Stopping the threat” is a phrase that acknowledges the end goal isn’t to kill the assailant but to eliminate his/her ability to do you harm. I fully understand that. That said, putting rounds into someone’s upper thoracic cavity and or cranial ocular cavity if the former proves ineffective is quite likely to result in death. That’s a reality that exists when a firearm is employed and why the use of a firearm is not taken lightly. The goal is to end the fight quickly to reduce the assailant’s chances to harm you and others. Hence shooting at the zones I previously mentioned. Many trainers discuss these as switches versus timers, with some shots resulting in a very quick cessation of violent action (often death) and the others allowing the assailant to keep fighting. Now if the assailant stops before he or she dies then yes, the idea of applying a coup de grace is considered unnecessary and illegal. However, the goal isn’t to poke holes in the assailant until he stops. If pain compliance is your aim, there are less lethal options that exist that are likely more effective in terms of incapacitating pain and aren’t nearly as likely to result in death.

I actually have no problem with the 10mm. If someone wants to carry it I say more power to him/her. The problem seems to be that discussions on 10mm often go to what I consider silly lengths to justify its use. The ballistics alone are justification and the trade offs are what they are and should be acknowledged. But when people start talking about how one cartridge is a “stopping” cartridge, I think we’ve gone a bit far, at least when we’re talking handgun cartridges. We’re back in the days of gun store tropes where a 45 will “knock a man down”. If you want real permanent stretch cavity step it up to a rifle, or damage on a larger scale then bring a shotgun into the equation.


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For self defense, does any other round other than 10mm have lbs talked about? Nope.

Never heard of anyone arguing it except in 10mm. It's always, "how's the penetration and expansion." Luckygunner tests don't even include this measure. It's meaningless. We are talking self defense--hollow points.

For FPS and people who only like 9mm, do you hear people say they carry Federal 115gr +p+ anymore? It has greater FPS than all 10mm commercial with 1300 FPS. Almost 300fps more than HST/Gold Dots! Nope. Mothball technology now.


So it does lead this one member to say the 9mm HST does better than all than two commercial 10mm loads in the Luckygunner test. This testing is available for anyone and uses the same medium across the rounds.

Again, as I already said, the 10mm in the Luckgunner test is a G20 with a 4.6" barrel. The 9mm is a M&Pc with a 3.5" barrel.

HST proves you don't need massive FPS to do best. It's the best 9mm round right now. It doesn't need high FPS. Best expansion. Best/almost too much penetration.
 
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wild cat mccane said:
For self defense, does any other round other than 10mm have lbs talked about? Nope.
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.357 Magnum. Well, people don't talk about the ft/lbs or velocity, they just talk about how powerful it is. What makes it powerful? The FPS and ft/lbs.

Never heard of anyone arguing it except in 10mm. It's always, "how's the penetration and expansion." Luckygunner tests don't even include this measure. It's meaningless. We are talking self defense--hollow points.

For FPS and people who only like 9mm, do you hear people say they carry Federal 115gr +p+ anymore? It has greater FPS than all 10mm commercial with 1300 FPS. Almost 300fps more than HST/Gold Dots! Nope. Mothball technology now.
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Some people do because they like the price of it, but I'll agree with you that 9mm +P+ is dead. It's FPS may be more than 10mm, but it's doing it with a 115gr bullet and not a 180gr bullet.


So it does lead this one member to say the 9mm HST does better than all than two commercial 10mm loads in the Luckygunner test. This testing is available for anyone and uses the same medium across the rounds.

Again, as I already said, the 10mm in the Luckgunner test is a G20 with a 4.6" barrel. The 9mm is a M&Pc with a 3.5" barrel.

HST proves you don't need massive FPS to do best. It's the best 9mm round right now. It doesn't need high FPS. Best expansion. Best/almost too much penetration.
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Let's leave FPS and ft/lbs aside for this question, but if you have two bullets that both expand to the same diameter, both penetrate 14 to 18 inches, but the difference between them is their starting diameter and weight, how can you say that one is better than the other?
 
We can disagree. I'm cool with it. Honestly. But the standards are changing on this person defense question.

Bullet design is thrown out, FPS don't matter, lbs now don't matter...so it's weight of bullet now.

Most 10mm isn't up to standards of 9mm loads now. Gold Dot 10mm just came out and FPS is within the 9mm PD load levels.

But 33grs more from an older 180gr 10mm bullet makes the difference? Now we are just debating 40 vs 9mm. Believe it or not, 9mm won against 40 HST vs HST as posted by Federal testing. Auto glass was the only winner in 40. I could be wrong, but it's available for all to review. I'll happily be corrected here.


I'll take the better designed bullet.
 
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One thing I'd like to know is that since apparently energy foot-pounds don't matter anymore, why choose 9mm Luger over .380 ACP? I mean, it's the same diameter, modern JHPs such as Hornady XTPs will penetrate to at least 12" in IWBA Spec Ballistics Gel with full expansion, they can be fit into smaller, lighter, more easily concealed firearms, and has softer recoil in firearms of similar size. Just about the only tangible benefit 9mm Luger has over .380 ACP these days is energy, but apparently that doesn't matter at all, or is it merely that 9mm Luger is right at the threshold in which energy foot-pounds conveniently cease to make a difference?

And if bullet weight is more important, then shouldn't a 158gr .38 Special +P be superior to 9mm Luger?
 
That's an easy answer.

No 380 performs in the 9mm range with expansion and penetration. It's not a question of bullet weight, fps, or lbs.

None are hitting .70+ expansion at 18" penetration.

If they did, 380 in a pocket size would be the clear winner in the single stacks. At 12-14" and expansion, Federal's new DEEP and XTP kinda does make it 380 acceptable. You're 2 inches from average 9mm penetration. XTP is designed not to expand as much though. So 380 technology hasn't worked out yet.

Look at my P365 vs the LCP. LCP is acceptable because it's hugely smaller. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6721033
 
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I have a Glock 29 (10mm) on my carry permit (in California, you have to specify the firearms on your permit - up to three). However, I rarely carry it.

I'm getting to the tail end of middle-age and I find it to be a bit of a hand full. Many who are younger and stronger would not. I carry it with Federal 180gn Hydra-Shok ammo; which is somewhat "de-tuned" and that helps with manageability. If I were younger, I'm sure I would carry it more. And if I was younger and in law enforcement, I would strongly consider the Glock 20 (which I also own).
 
lll Otto lll said:
Yep. Too much muzzle energy for most shooters, especially newbies. I guess that's why factory loads are so anemic now.
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The reason a lot of the factory ammo for 10mm is loaded weak is the bullets used are meant for .40 S&W velocities, not the velocities 10mm can achieve.

Only exception to that, I believe, is the 200 grain loadings. No ammo company makes a 200 grain .400" JHP bullet meant to be shot from .40 S&W, they know it's a 10mm specific bullet and design it for the higher velocities.
 
Forte S+W said:
One thing I'd like to know is that since apparently energy foot-pounds don't matter anymore, why choose 9mm Luger over .380 ACP? I mean, it's the same diameter, modern JHPs such as Hornady XTPs will penetrate to at least 12" in IWBA Spec Ballistics Gel with full expansion, they can be fit into smaller, lighter, more easily concealed firearms, and has softer recoil in firearms of similar size. Just about the only tangible benefit 9mm Luger has over .380 ACP these days is energy, but apparently that doesn't matter at all, or is it merely that 9mm Luger is right at the threshold in which energy foot-pounds conveniently cease to make a difference?

And if bullet weight is more important, then shouldn't a 158gr .38 Special +P be superior to 9mm Luger?
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Pretty much what Wild Cat said, the .380 suffers badly from poor penetration. A more appropriate comparison would be why choose .357 over .38?

Looking at Lucky Gunner again, using a 4" barrel, the Federal 130 grain HST Micro gets 854 fps, .71" expanded diameter, penetration to 14.1 inches. Works out to 211 ft/lbs. For .357 Magnum, again from a 4" barrel, the Federal Hydra Shock 130 grain gets 1407 fps, .67" expanded diameter, and penetrates to 13.3 inches, which comes to 572 ft/lbs.

Same weight projectile, nearly identical penetration and expansion, but using Wild Cat's thesis that energy foot pounds doesn't matter, that means the .38 load is better because it penetrated a bit over three quarters of an inch more and expanded .04 inches more.
 
All 357 loads are not equal. A Seirra bullet (garbage/junk) in 357 vs a Gold Dot 38 loaded by Speer? I would take the Gold Dot. No question. In that case of that luckygunner 38 vs 357? Yep, the 38 performed better. Enough to say 38 is always better? na. As the luckygunner 38/357 article states, the performance gains out of some 357 might not be worth it in the end. Their words. Somewhere out there on Youtube, there is Federal plant walk through. A Federal employee is asked about the different caliber results. Straight up, the dude says we care more about expansion AND penetration than the caliber. Welp, Federal makes more ammo than any manufacturer in the world (Federal makes Lake City ammo for the DOD).

If i were buying 10mm self defense rounds? I would buy Speer Gold Dot 200gr and know I'm getting the exact same results as Speer .40 Gold Dot 180gr results. Which are great. Good expansion. Good penetration. All you need. But...then what was the point of 10mm? And since 9mm HST outperformed 40 HST, what was the point of 40? 45 sized gun with 40 level results for self defense. Meh.

10mm and 357 suffer from extreme internet hype. Just because it is 357, doesn't make it better. More than likely, pick up a 10mm commercial load and you're getting 40 level results. Can you go harder in 10mm? Oh sure! what for though?

You're seeing it here. The higher lbs was mentioned. Wild cat, what/why isn't lbs important? Well, back to you, what happened to all the lbs on the 10mm that only went 14" in gel was asked? Simple. The expansion ate it up. And it cost you 4" of penetration that HST 9mm didn't eat from expansion. All expanding rounds have the crushing lbs eaten by expansion. 380 all the way to mega huge rounds. That's why hollow point is different than non expanding FMJ.


For hunting? I don't even think 10mm is that special either. FMJ goes almost the same depth 9mm, 40, 10mm (from 24-34" inches, all rounds within that range). There are some pretty fast 9mm XTP loads. Look at those compared to 40...kinda similar. Now what does a few fps more in 10mm do? 357 and 10mm are not in rifle feet per second ranges. It isn't until you go rifle speed that rifle rounds do their rifle level things :) Recall, I mentioned Federal 9mm 115gr+P+ at 1,300fps. That is faster than all (?) 357 commercial speeds. Anyone care about that round anymore? Nope. Usually cheap.

For SD? Hollow points are designed to do specific things. XTP goes deep by not expanding as much as Gold Dot/HST/Winchester Ranger T. Gold Dot expands. Make a Gold Dot go SUPER fast? Blossoms it up super fast, slowing it down since the area increased in the front, penetration gets weighted down by the new area. Hollow points can't open past what they are designed to open up.

If you rip a hollow point too fast, it breaks up. That makes the hollow point not expand the full travel, leaves behind weight, and slows the weight that it maintains. Does anyone thing frangible rounds are good for handgun hunting? No. But rip an old style Gold Dot going 1300fps from a 10mm from BB/Underwood/Double Tap and everyone thinks it is amazing. It might not be. A 9mm at 9mm fps Gold Dot might have performed equally at doing what the 10mm results on target do.
 
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For daily CCW, I prefer my G23 with 13+1 rds of 180grn 40s&w handloads using Speer Gold Dots and Speer brass at 1,075fps with 462ft/lbs of ME (so if something goes down it looks like Speer factory ammo). For the woods, my custom 16 year old G20L (6" slide like the G40) with 17+1 rds of 200grn hardcast handloads pushing 1,350fps with 809ft/lbs of ME are plenty good enough for anything I'll see in the Rockies. Better still, my G20L with 18rds on board is actually lighter and less bulky than a comparable 6" barreled S&W 686 with only 6rds of 180grn .357mag on board.

As I handload, I don't even own a 9mm because my quality handloads are larger, faster, and harder hitting than any commercial 9mm+P stuff and they are about 1/2 to 1/3 the price of even bargain priced ammo. And all the crap about snappy 40s is hype. My larger, heavier, harder hitting 180grn Gold Dot 40s&w handloads in my G23 aren't as snappy as 147grn Federal HST 9mm+P loads (1050fps with only 360ft/lbs of ME) in a G19. Same Glock platform just different caliber so the comparison is perfectly valid.

People forget that standard 9mm is the same pressure as 40s&w but the 9mm+P ammo is a real high pressure round with a SAAMI spec of 38,500psi. That compares to the 40s&w SAAMI spec of 35,000psi and in fact 9mm+P is loaded to a higher pressure than the 10mm at 37,500psi. That high pressure with the 147grn bullets gives the +P loads a real snap that everyone forgets about. Those are real world facts, not interweb fantasy.
 
And on hard cast. The boutique round makers really live off the hard cast and flat meplat in handgun rounds myth.

Kel Tec forum did some great testing 15 years ago with hard cast 380 vs FMJ. Which one broke up on bone?

FMJ deforms but keeps moving. Hard cast can shatter and stop pretty quick. The copper surrounding FMJ can be harder than most blends of hard cast. Then you just made frangible hard cast.

Who here thinks frangible rounds are good?

See. It's not as simple as 10mm is just better. In sd or hunting, it doesn't do one role better than another round. Versatility? Well, they all are versatile. It's the bullet and round you select that changes the role.

I don't dislike 10mm. It's pretty darn cool. I do dislike 357 and 10mm myths. And there are a lot of them for these rounds. Most myths are from way back when bullet designs were actually pretty junk. That's changed.
 
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I think if you have a choice and are willing to practice anything bigger in diameter is going to be a better answer than anything smaller in diameter. Some folks might be slight of build or old and weak. Those folks are better served by a smaller caliber weapon.

To some extent velocity is able to make up for lack of diameter. See "Major Power factors" for example.
 
I’ve been carrying a G-29 since
2005. Use the 155 gn Hornady XTP bullet & Power Pistol.

Don’t see any reason to change.


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I had forgotten that the great 9mm does not have the power to be carried while hunting.

I think some of the local hunters are pushing to allow the 9mm to be used for harvesting small squirrels under 4" long. What will they think of next?
 
I think some of the local hunters are pushing to allow the 9mm to be used for harvesting small squirrels under 4" long. What will they think of next?
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The Wild Kitty McCane would be pleased, since it's a Mini-meter, not the Best-meter. :rolleyes:
 
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