rickmelear
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As long as you shoot it well in a stressful, defensive situation it’s great.
10mm for self defense
- Thread starter Doc Holliday45
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For two-legged varmints, FBI Lite is the way to go.
As the FBI discovered, that rounds passed all of their tests that every ammo maker strives to meet.
Full-power ten is needlessly loud, too much recoil, too much muzzle blast.
Cooper was right when he conceived the 10mm cartridge to replace .45 ACP in a heavy duty service pistol; 200 grains @ 1000fps.
If you are wandering the wilds, where you will find animals much tougher than you find on the street, then 200@1200, with a hard bullet, would be my choice.
As the FBI discovered, that rounds passed all of their tests that every ammo maker strives to meet.
Full-power ten is needlessly loud, too much recoil, too much muzzle blast.
Cooper was right when he conceived the 10mm cartridge to replace .45 ACP in a heavy duty service pistol; 200 grains @ 1000fps.
If you are wandering the wilds, where you will find animals much tougher than you find on the street, then 200@1200, with a hard bullet, would be my choice.
TruthTellers
New member
You're trying to make an argument that energy in a handgun round is essentially a non-sequitur, a statistic that has no impact on the actual physics involved.
Taking data from the Lucky Gunner tests, the 124 gr 9mm+P load gets 376 ft/lbs and expanded to .66" with a bit over 18" of penetration while the Hornady 155 gr 10mm gets 622 ft/lbs and expanded to .68" with 14" penetration, with the Hornady 180 gr 10mm getting 536 ft/lbs and expansion of .64" getting 17" of penetration.
So, penetration figures were all adequate to FBI spec, all expanded to roughly the same diameter, but the difference is the 10mm had 150 to 250 ft/lbs more energy. The Conservation of Energy law states that energy is neither created, nor destroyed, it is transferred, thus saying that the increased energy has no effect is wrong. As is the statement that "9mm HST will do better than any commercial loads for 10mm right now."
Dare I say Underwood or Doubletap or even an individuals warm to hot handloads? I know you said commercial loads, but people can make some impressively powerful 10mm handloads using published data that 9mm handloaders can only dream of.
Anyway, just because it's not dumping energy levels the same as rifles doesn't mean it's not happening. In fact with 10mm it's transferring that energy FASTER than 9mm is because it's not penetrating as much, but contains more energy.
In leyman's terms this means it hits harder because of the greater FPS.
Further, you don't need to create tissue damage via a rifle velocity for it to have greater impact and you also don't need it to expand nearly twice it's diameter to work.
wild cat mccane
New member
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I do still disagree though.
Also look at the luckygunner HST 147gr +P. Amazing. The 9mm HST outperforms many of the 10mm commercial loads for expansion AND penetration. Actually, all of them but two.
Underwood/BB load Speer uni-core bonded bullet, not current Gold Dot or Gold Dot G2. HST outperforms current Gold Dot loads from Vista for expansion and penetration. HST changed the game when it came out. Bigger expansion, deeper, less FPS.
You have to say that energy changed the outcome of being hit. An HST 9mm is going to kill in the right place. Period. The additional FPS of a 10mm isn't going to change anything. Ballistically, the 9mm HST got the bullet there bigger and deeper.
So yeah, the extra lbs umph does nothing for the 10mm performing better.
Also look at the luckygunner HST 147gr +P. Amazing. The 9mm HST outperforms many of the 10mm commercial loads for expansion AND penetration. Actually, all of them but two.
Underwood/BB load Speer uni-core bonded bullet, not current Gold Dot or Gold Dot G2. HST outperforms current Gold Dot loads from Vista for expansion and penetration. HST changed the game when it came out. Bigger expansion, deeper, less FPS.
You have to say that energy changed the outcome of being hit. An HST 9mm is going to kill in the right place. Period. The additional FPS of a 10mm isn't going to change anything. Ballistically, the 9mm HST got the bullet there bigger and deeper.
So yeah, the extra lbs umph does nothing for the 10mm performing better.
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Doc Holliday45
Inactive
I was considering the .45 ACP in a 1911 but I want something that’s going to hold more than 8+1 rounds.
ammo.crafter
New member
10mm
10mm is closer to a .41mag than a .357mag.
Recoil and second shot must be considered. Double tapping a 10mm is difficult to control.
Perhaps a S&W 40 and/or a .41 Special would suit you better.
10mm is closer to a .41mag than a .357mag.
Recoil and second shot must be considered. Double tapping a 10mm is difficult to control.
Perhaps a S&W 40 and/or a .41 Special would suit you better.
stinkeypete
New member
Kibitzing- seems to me “double taps” were invented because 9mm is “not enough”. I don’t hear about double taps with .45acp, 10mm etc. as thems with great recoil are also thems that lay down a big hole on the first place.
So the conventional wisdom now seems to be that one needs 12+ rounds of 9mm and that’s the herd’s wisdom. 38 special is “too weak” and 5 or 6 rounds is a major disadvantage and reloading is deemed impossible (although I’ve never had a revolver fail to feed, stovepipe or malfunction in any way so we don’t blame the shooter for limp wristing.)
I will get berated on these boards because my .380 is basically a pea shooter even though the bullet diameter is within a thousandth or two of an inch from 9mm and the only acceptable reason to carry a .22 is because one must be old and feeble. Carrying a .25 or .32... shhhhh... those guys.. we don’t talk about thems in front of the children.
We won’t mention that if you can shoot it, .40 really is better than 9mm because... we don’t like the CRACK!! and SNAP! Of a .40. The kids all think the BOOM and PUSH from a 1911 is just for Grandpa until they shoot a few targets, feel the glass break of the trigger, then mutter that it only has 7 rounds and complain about the cost of ammunition so they feel better. Gramps says “Lazy kids! When the Paco-lips comes, you’ll wish you knew how to reload! And get off my lawn!”
Guys with 10mm will argue for days about the best bullet for unsociable bears.
Guys with .454 Casull argue about the best bullet for Cape Buffalo.
Guys with S&W500 argue about when will they get their gun back from the factory and those with a .500 Linebaugh don’t need to talk, their grip panels cost more than my truck.
If you had your choice, you’d probably pick Seal Team Seven for home defense, lacking that you’d pick a long gun.
Everything is a compromise and everything hinges on your ability and needs.
10mm? I know some big men with good skill that can make 10mm hum like a sewing machine mated with Thor’s hammer. You would not want to go one-on-one with such a man with a 9mm.
We haven’t even talked about things like “Shoot through a car door? Heck, even my .45 Colt with hard cast makes a car door look like Swiss cheese”
Everything is a compromise. Let’s face it, my sister was a LEO for 5 years and never drew her weapon. Chances are you’ll never fire yours. In the great outdoors, 10mm is a respectable handgun for deer hunting and anything less I look on as someone in great need or someone that disrespects the animal.
After this long, hopefully amusing rant, you might say “Well Pete, what did you just buy? You’ve been looking for a 9mm” and then I say “Well..... errr.... I was looking and then this fella had a Ruger Single Six in .32 H&R magnum... and ...I had to have it. Buy ammunition? Haha haha! Funny! You can’t even get all the components for reloading in one place online!”
We don’t talk about .357 Magnum and .32 Fed Mag because they are revolver cartridges but are good enough to hunt deer with when we say “there is no replacement for proper shot placement”.
Since I got that Ruger in an even trade, I still have discretionary money for a 9mm some day... but a proper wood and steel revolver beat it out for my “gotta have its”.
So the conventional wisdom now seems to be that one needs 12+ rounds of 9mm and that’s the herd’s wisdom. 38 special is “too weak” and 5 or 6 rounds is a major disadvantage and reloading is deemed impossible (although I’ve never had a revolver fail to feed, stovepipe or malfunction in any way so we don’t blame the shooter for limp wristing.)
I will get berated on these boards because my .380 is basically a pea shooter even though the bullet diameter is within a thousandth or two of an inch from 9mm and the only acceptable reason to carry a .22 is because one must be old and feeble. Carrying a .25 or .32... shhhhh... those guys.. we don’t talk about thems in front of the children.
We won’t mention that if you can shoot it, .40 really is better than 9mm because... we don’t like the CRACK!! and SNAP! Of a .40. The kids all think the BOOM and PUSH from a 1911 is just for Grandpa until they shoot a few targets, feel the glass break of the trigger, then mutter that it only has 7 rounds and complain about the cost of ammunition so they feel better. Gramps says “Lazy kids! When the Paco-lips comes, you’ll wish you knew how to reload! And get off my lawn!”
Guys with 10mm will argue for days about the best bullet for unsociable bears.
Guys with .454 Casull argue about the best bullet for Cape Buffalo.
Guys with S&W500 argue about when will they get their gun back from the factory and those with a .500 Linebaugh don’t need to talk, their grip panels cost more than my truck.
If you had your choice, you’d probably pick Seal Team Seven for home defense, lacking that you’d pick a long gun.
Everything is a compromise and everything hinges on your ability and needs.
10mm? I know some big men with good skill that can make 10mm hum like a sewing machine mated with Thor’s hammer. You would not want to go one-on-one with such a man with a 9mm.
We haven’t even talked about things like “Shoot through a car door? Heck, even my .45 Colt with hard cast makes a car door look like Swiss cheese”
Everything is a compromise. Let’s face it, my sister was a LEO for 5 years and never drew her weapon. Chances are you’ll never fire yours. In the great outdoors, 10mm is a respectable handgun for deer hunting and anything less I look on as someone in great need or someone that disrespects the animal.
After this long, hopefully amusing rant, you might say “Well Pete, what did you just buy? You’ve been looking for a 9mm” and then I say “Well..... errr.... I was looking and then this fella had a Ruger Single Six in .32 H&R magnum... and ...I had to have it. Buy ammunition? Haha haha! Funny! You can’t even get all the components for reloading in one place online!”
We don’t talk about .357 Magnum and .32 Fed Mag because they are revolver cartridges but are good enough to hunt deer with when we say “there is no replacement for proper shot placement”.
Since I got that Ruger in an even trade, I still have discretionary money for a 9mm some day... but a proper wood and steel revolver beat it out for my “gotta have its”.
AgedWarrior
New member
Oh yeah, my bad! I failed to acknowledge Glock’s as the solution for everything!
TruthTellers
New member
Um, the 124gr +P HST outperformed the the 147gr +P HST. It achieved the same penetration depths and expansion diameter, but with a higher energy.
Any bullet will kill if put in the right place, but the point of self defense isn't killing, it's stopping. 10mm is a stopping round due to the higher velocity and energy.
Look, I get your a mega fanboy of the HST, but saying it's superior to 10mm because it penetrates deeper with less is beyond the pale. It takes more than a technologically advanced bullet design to make it a better ammo than 10mm and I'll give the HST and other bullet designs their due in that they've made 9mm a respectable defense caliber, but they don't make it better than 10mm in terms of defense capability.
We start off with the good ole, “I carry a 45 because shooting twice is just silly” logic. Then we hit every branch on the gun store myth tree on our way down. As for going to war with a guy with a 10mm with a 9mm, anyone that carries a 9mm takes that chance every day. Does being good with a 10mm mean that 9mm bullets no longer can kill you? Good to know.
I feel pretty strongly that skill is the more important attribute in that contest than cartridge. Oh, and as for not needing to shoot twice with a 45, read the following. Now obviously not every self defense encounter will go that way. The point is shot placement is king. These are still handguns people.
https://www.policeone.com/officer-s...5-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/
Edit: it’s hard to tell in the quoted post when the sarcasm ends and the real opinions begin, so if it was all sarcastic forgive me.
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I could be wrong, but killing seems like a pretty effective way of stopping/incapacitating a threat. If we’re going to talk about going beyond the pale, let’s address this too.
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Not really. The hottest 10mm loads are only 'close' in the .41 Mag's very low range.
Not for those who actually practice with it. The key is to buy or handload 'practice' ammo that roughly equals your carry ammo, especially if you're packing one of the high-performance loads. That's been a 'basic lesson' for 10mm users since at least the late 1980s.
It's also another reason that reloading becomes your best buddy if you want to jump into the 10mm economically and see for yourself just how versatile it is and what it can really do ballistically, and maybe especially what it can do on both game & nuisance animals.
Not only is there a huge swath of available bullet-weights and styles to choose from, but the 10mm's also a very easy and forgiving cartridge to reload for.
Over the decades I've probably handloaded in excess of 10K-rds of 'training ammo' that approximates the same energy level as my EDC load, which tends to be run in the DT/Buff. Bore/Underwood range - i.e., 'heavy & fast.'
Until you've spent a good amount of time runnin'-n-gunnin' with the 10mm AUTO, you don't know what you don't know.
stinkeypete
New member
Tunnel, it’s all in fun and meant to be a recitation of every mall ninja debate point. That’s the point. I even made every point you rebutted with... so I will pat myself on the back for an amusing post.
Cosmodragoon
New member
Ammo selection matters. For normal self defense, there are factory loads more on par with .40 S&W. The .40 S&W is excellent for normal self defense so that should work. One issue that's come up is that 10mm hasn't seen the same boosts in bullet technology that we've seen with 9mm, causing one member here to suggest that 9mm HST is superior. Personally, I think the .40-level loads in 10mm will be fine for normal self defense.
Of course, I mean "normal self defense" with respect to concealed carry in relatively civilized areas. This means threats like humans who mean you harm or maybe an aggressive dog. Generally, 9mm with good ammo is fine for this. You get a little more oomph from .40 S&W or .45acp but there are trade-offs. Both offer more recoil and less capacity. As the OP noted, the capacity trade-off with .45 acp is significant. This is part of the "why" for .40 S&W. The .40 gives you extra oomph with less of a loss in capacity and you can have it on 9mm-sized frames.
Speaking of size, guns in 10mm and .45acp tend to be large. That can put them at odds with concealed carry needs. All of these factors have helped 9mm to reclaim the concealed carry crown. Personally, I like 9mm in compact guns and .40 S&W in full-sized guns for normal carry. I like 10mm with more powerful ammo when I'm out in the woods. The venerable .45acp has slowly but completely fallen out my carry rotation.
Of course, I mean "normal self defense" with respect to concealed carry in relatively civilized areas. This means threats like humans who mean you harm or maybe an aggressive dog. Generally, 9mm with good ammo is fine for this. You get a little more oomph from .40 S&W or .45acp but there are trade-offs. Both offer more recoil and less capacity. As the OP noted, the capacity trade-off with .45 acp is significant. This is part of the "why" for .40 S&W. The .40 gives you extra oomph with less of a loss in capacity and you can have it on 9mm-sized frames.
Speaking of size, guns in 10mm and .45acp tend to be large. That can put them at odds with concealed carry needs. All of these factors have helped 9mm to reclaim the concealed carry crown. Personally, I like 9mm in compact guns and .40 S&W in full-sized guns for normal carry. I like 10mm with more powerful ammo when I'm out in the woods. The venerable .45acp has slowly but completely fallen out my carry rotation.
bamaranger
New member
bullet set back
The 10mm/135gr bullet is very short in overall length, and not a lot of flat surface on the sides of the projectile before the ogive begins. There is not a great deal of bearing surface for case to projectile contact. When such an arrangement meets the feed ramp during the feed cycle, the bullet can be driven deeper into the case due to lack of "sticktion". This may be a gun to gun, issue, and I do not believe there are many factory loads using the 135 gr bullet except the boutique companies. But there is discussion regards the issue.
The 10mm/135gr bullet is very short in overall length, and not a lot of flat surface on the sides of the projectile before the ogive begins. There is not a great deal of bearing surface for case to projectile contact. When such an arrangement meets the feed ramp during the feed cycle, the bullet can be driven deeper into the case due to lack of "sticktion". This may be a gun to gun, issue, and I do not believe there are many factory loads using the 135 gr bullet except the boutique companies. But there is discussion regards the issue.
Kevin Rohrer
New member
It is a fine SD round, and certainly much, much better than the Wonder-9. The 10mm is spunky, but any man should be able to master it.
TruthTellers
New member
Yes, it's effective, but that's not the sole factor we're relying on to stop a threat. We want the threat stopped, if the aggressor dies, the aggressor dies. It's irrelevant in relation to threat being stopped.
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