Your moral obligation to help innocents at risk?

Now I Understand More

My only point was surprise. IMO only, if a person is disinclined to go to the serious aid of another in trouble I would expect them to find a way to rationalize why they shouldn't help any but their family.

It's just a good lesson to me how I'm outside the mainstream. Maybe my bad as I can't help how I am either.
 
Movie heros? You present movie heros for examples? Outside of war (Audie was a real life war hero), and war situations are not the discussion in this thread, these were movie heros. Come on, real life here...

Holy Cow! People who don't immediately rush into to help crime victims are guilty of the same crimes as the Nazis in the Holocaust!!!!! Where in the world did that comparison come from? That is so far over the top that it is bordering on comedy!

Now here's a response that demands a AMEN! Let's be real, folks, and not fall back on Hollywood fantasy or invoking Godwin's Law to make a reasonable point ridiculous.
 
The Original Question

The question was, do you have a moral obligation to help someone in need. Many of the examples stated show us the results of not getting involved. What you do is between you and your Maker; and is influenced by whatever guiding principles you cling to each day. I think it is extremely inappropriate for those who would not act to find fault with those that say they would. Such terms as keyboard commandos and tactical teddys are demeaning.

Yes, it is easy to sit in the comfort of our homes (offices) and tell what we would do, it is just as easy to find fault with what was said! I have been on this earth a pretty long time (68 years) and have seen and done a lot. Most of my career has been in the protection field and I have seen far more incidents that got worse from someones failure to act than the other way around. Telling yourself that you would just make it worse seems kinda lame to me.

If you came across an accident with people injured and bleeding, would you tell yourself, "I am not a doctor, I'll call 911 and wait" or would you do your best to apply basic first aid? Not been trained in basic first aid? Most of it is common sense!!! People can die rather quickly; the window of opportunity to prevent them from dying is rather narrow.

Just as you will react the way you train you will probably also react the way you have thought it through. The what if game, if you will.

While it is disappointing to read some of the comments, they do not nor will they in any way change my thought process. I may be a fool but I will not be a "bystander" if I can help.

John
Charlotte, NC
 
The original question was
Personally, I always struggle with this. Is it really my obligation to take action? Certainly I might agree with this if my actions did not put me at risk. However, I am not sure that is true when I might become injuried, disabled, or killed. In fact, even if I personally feel compelled to act, I feel as though I have to weigh the potential disasterous consequences and its impact on my family.

Personally, I am a proponent of carrying for the defense of yourself and your family. Any other use should be carefully weighed. In my mind, if it does not involve me or my family, I need compelling reasons to act. The default is not to take actions unless I must.

I also often wonder what my obligation is to take action to help/defend those who have not taken actions to be prepared. If they are unwilling to carry a way to defend themselves, why should I feel obligated to defend them? I know it sounds cold but it makes sense to me.

And this is very hard to discuss when it is a generalized question without specific situations. However, if you as a non LEO citizen with a ccw, think you might can rescue someone because you have a gun, then you should at least consider the following:

1. Can I rescue this person at no risk to myself? If the answer is yes then get after it. But if the answer is no then:
2. What happens to my family if I get killed attempting to rescue a total stranger? Who takes responsibility for my family after I get killed? Who will my children call Daddy? Can my wife support our kids at the same level without me? How would she vote on this situation if she could?
3. Why hasn't this person taken the responsibility of protecting himself? Why is he a victim when he could be armed and taking care of himself? Why doesn't he take responsibility for himself in situations like this? What is it that makes him weak, and therefore "requires" my help?
4. Why should I risk my life and my family's welfare and security for a stranger that I know nothing about? Is this a good person or a bad person? Am I going to risk my life for someone who turns out to be a wife beater and dog kicker? He might even be anti gun, anti hunter! What if he is a democrat? :eek:
5. If I barge in will I cause more damage than if I dont barge in? Will I cause the BG to start shooting where otherwise he might not shoot?

Basic questions to consider. Again, it is hard to definitively answer this question without an extremely specific scenario.
 
moral obligation

it is very hard to say exactly what you would do until you are in that situation. At the end of the day, I hope I would make the choice that would enable me to sleep with a clear conscience and meet my maker knowing I did the right thing.
 
My father and I both served down range in a military conflict. Our obligation was to the US Army and to this nation not to some stranger in the street. Yes people in Vietnam and the people in Iraq my father and I had to deal with were strangers. Do I feel I am obligated to the people of Iraq? No,
The principle stated in my first post is the principle that guided my father to reenlist and grandfather to enlist in the first place, when neither would have been asked to join in.
It's partly the reason I was sentenced(more or less) to the army in '79.

It's also the reason I have been arrested once an inconvienced several times ( for those that want to believe that we are all just keyboard commandos)
I have backed my talk up more times than is prudent and have no plans to stop any time soon.
 
While we all may make statements while comfortably seated at our keyboards, what we actually do when the chips are down ,shows both ourselves and others, what we are made of.
Most of us just plain don't know what action we would take when crunch time makes itself known. Often, there is not a lot of time to think, or to weigh different options. What we do often surprises everyone.
 
Movie heros? You present movie heros for examples? Outside of war (Audie was a real life war hero), and war situations are not the discussion in this thread, these were movie heros. Come on, real life here...

I see it the point I was trying to make was a little too deep for you.

The only people using the label of being a hero are the people who are less likely to offer help. It helps to justify being selfish or a coward. Its not about being a hero, its about helping your fellow man in time of need. I could care less of what people would think either way, It's myself I would have to live with and answer to.

kenny b
 
+1 to Butch50

I don't think I can say it better than Butch50. But let me add something.

My problem with most of the posts is Bill Clintonish: How do you define "innocents?" The problem with the original question is that it assumes you know, and I don't think you will very often. If it is a woman, why is she defenseless? Being a woman is no excuse in the modern world for being a victim. I'm sorry, but most Democrats probably deserve it, if that's why they go unarmed. If you want a movie line, try Clint Eastwood from Unforgiven: "He should have armed himself."

If an adult is beating a small child bloody, I would step in, no questions asked, and have done so. Probably would do the same if it was a dog or a horse. Beyond that, in most situations, I probably won't know who is innocent.

And +1 for the Republic of Texas.
 
I went through Basic Training and Infantry Advanced Individual Training and never once heard that phrase.

In the Israel Defense Force, where I was [admittedly a non-combat soldiers], people carry their duty weapon on leave. They are instructed that if a violent encounter breaks out, they are to intervene and to apply the first-aid and marksmanship skills they are taught [meager indeed in my case] to protect human life.
 
Well, many people made fair arguments either way. I am a Soldier, and have been a volunteer firefighter... and may soon be again.

I've gone into burning buildings to look for victims, I've rappelled down cliffs to car wrecks, I've thrown away pants that were too soaked with blood to clean... I've also been to Iraq twice. There I did some shooting, some ducking, a little bleeding and lots of sweating.

I feel it is my personal responsibility to protect those weaker than I, and those who cannot protect themselves whether due to personal circumstance or poor judgement.

The aid I give will be based on the specific situation... it may range from an 911 cell call to CPR to physical intervention to a bullet in someone's brain without warning. The only CONSTANT will be the idea that as a citizen and as a man I have a duty to act, as opposed to those who believe they have no duty to act but might do so if it wasn't too much trouble.

If it happens that I die trying to stop a crime or an assault, is that really so bad? My family is well provided for and there are A LOT worse ways and reasons to die. I've seen them... tried to prevent some, helped administer some... the only certainty is that we _will_ die sometime. I figure I might as well go out trying to make a difference than live with the memory that I could have done something and didn't.
 
I dont know. I dont carry and I have not seen any action.
But I do see 4 outcomes to this situation.
A store is being robbed at gunpoint.
I am in the store and I have a gun.
I could...
(A) Shoot the BG. (GREY)
(B) Shoot the BG if he shoots anyone. (BLUE)
(C) Wait and call 911. (GREEN)
or
(D) Wait, shoot the BG, grab the money, and run. (RED)
:D

Pick your color.
:)
 
This is an interesting question for a civilian. For a cop it is easy - do your duty ( it's what you get paid for.)
My advice for a civilian (for instance my wife) would be this:-Consider the personal risk first. If you judge you can deal with it then go ahead. Otherwise call the police and get as much information as you can - a man cannot swallow the World. Bad stuff happens, if you witness it live don't be too bothered - it happens all the time, just do what you safely can do.

What I am saying, briefly, is Don't interfere! If it's a car wreck, leave it to the professionals - if it's a couple of dirtbags going at it, leave them to it.

These situations are best dealt with by those who know what to do.
I've seen too many injured 'good samaritans.'
 
Bloodybucket: Another example of not getting involved is you folks probably heard the story of a guy stabbing a lady in Walmart and a man with a CCW shooting him to save her. He never should have shot the guy. If I was in that situation I would scream for him to stop or even ran to get help.

He shouldn't have shot the guy?!?!?! :eek: You went on to say that maybe she had done something to enrage him to seek this revenge. No matter what she did to him previously, he was committing an assault with a deadly weapon, with the apparent intent to kill. No one has the right to track down and assault anyone. Retribution and punishment is reserved for the court system.

It's time to shoot first and ask questions later!
 
SAXD9 Read What I Said Again!

SAXD9, Did you read my post in it's entirety??????? I did say I do not condone violence, but I would understand the reason why a lady was getting stabbed if she maybe killed the mans wife and innocent child. I am not a LEO, I do not have the right to gun down a man in a busy Walmart store or even an alley way for that matter. Like I said before nobody here as an obligation to anyone except for your family and other things you promised to uphold. People who are supposedly weak have an obligation to help themselves unless they asked for my assistance and I accepted then I have an obligation to help that person. Like many of the comments stated many of you talk tough but have you ever been in a combat situation or even raised your weapon at another human being???? I have and I don't find shooting at someone or even raising my weapon on someone a glorious thing. I don't at all consider myself a hero just a guy doing his job and I don't except praise from anyone.
 
Leviticus makes my obligations as a Jew very clear - "do not stand idly by while your neighbor's blood is shed."
 
Wow!
A lot of good replies to this question of getting involved. Again, I think it boils down to one's own abilities and the situation!

A man stabbing a woman in a Wal-Mart, the woman might have been responsible for the man's family dying, but at the same time, I would be forced to grab a base ball bat from sporting goods and go for a knee cap...let the legal system determine who is right or wrong...a buring car and a child is strapped in a car seat, well I carry a knife (or 2) so I would cut the straps...two gremlins shooting it out, not able to do much as I rarely carry a gun...so duck and cover in this situation...a car wreck in which a person is mangled but still breathing, not much I can do for them, not trained to handle massive trauma, also don't have the equipment...the neighbor lady screaming for help because gremlins have broken into her house, call 911, sit back with the rifle and wait for said gremlins to come out of the house....in every case we will be forced to go/no go depending on the situation, so training, equipment, will determine our actions!
 
The problem with the discussion is that folks couch in simplistic terms:

1. Their moral philosophy - usually implying their worthiness and toughness
2. The need to avoid risk.

However, the decision to act altruistically is really driven by many factors that sum up to make a go/no go intervention discussion. To ignore that they influence you and to only talk about risk or philosophy really is very shallow.

In an intense discussion coming out the NTI 2 years ago - I summarized some of these factors - in some FOF simulations that had possible altruistic acts - you can get some of the scenarios from the context.
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Here's a first shot at one of the NTI issues. In ATSA village and some scenarios, there were places where you might have helped a victim of a crime or a bystander. Many of us didn't. Personally, I leaped over the abused woman, headed for the sunset while yelling for the Lawperson Vicki. I gave no thought to the attorney. In the bank robbery, I gave no thought to the bank staff (of course, our group had the preplanning of clam chowder - a good lesson). In the Pizza delivery scenario or saving my family, I did not check on the health of the victims (in this case it was not lack of altruism, I told them to keep down and don't move - I will be back after I deal with the BGs).

However the issue is altruism or helping behavior. In the after action discussion, folks tended to deal with lack of helping as a moral failure to the current political climate in the USA and presence of liberals, collectivism and sheer self- interest. Being the psychologist that I am, I have delved into the books and summarized the factors that have been found to influence helping behavior. These studies were motivated by the famous Kitty Genovese case (woman stabbed).

Now readers, remember that I'm posting these to shed insight (ah) into the behavior. I'm trying to present what knowledge we have of factors that might operate even though people like to form the discussion in terms of moral philosopy. Like the Iraqi prison scandal - you can tear Bush a new one because you don't like him or his policy and that's what led to it or you can realize from the Zimbardo prison experiment, that the situation produces this behavior - independent of Bush. Anyway, here's the factors with some commentary about motivations. I'm adding some personal hypotheses.

Bystander Intervention:

1. Factors that increase likelihood:

a. The feel good, do good effect - people who feel good, successful, etc. are more likely to help

b. Feeling guilty - we tend to help more if we feel guilty about something

c. Seeing others willing to help - if we see others help, we are more likely to help

d. Perceiving the other person as deserving of help - we're more likely to help people who are in need of help through no fault of their own
- The lawyers and bankers are not close to me or overly sympathetic in my world scheme. I feel little sympathy. The domestic dispute seemed like an argument among trailer trash. I might care not who is deserving in this one.

If we had a scenario, where a child is being kidnapped in ATSA village (might be an idea - have a stranger tugging at a screaming, protesting, child) - intervention might increase. ( Added-this year we did a save the baby while fighting armed terrorists - you had a side arm and an AK. I saved the baby, some didn't

e. Knowing how to help - contributes greatly to helping if you know what to do. Most of use had some knowledge how to fight - however, we also knew the risks and that might be more important.

f. A personalized relationship - if you have some relationship, you are more likely to help. Even minimal social interaction, like eye contact before an incident, will greatly increase helping

We had no real relationship with the bankers, lawyers, etc. One thing is that not many went to help Vicki. We did have contact with her but my group really didn't hear the rack so by the time we went to Code Confused it was too late. If I had heard her specifically, I might.

In the FOF team tatics, I chose not to help the lawman search for my buddy. Pragmatically, my face mask had fogged up and I was blind as a bat. I also felt it was a strange request from an officer, so I declined. If I could have been able to see - perhaps, my ability factor will have encouraged me to go.

2. Factors that Decrease likelihood

a. The presence of other people - called the bystander effect - in the domestic, I don't recall the attorney chiming in much. As it was his town, did I feel that he should take more of an active role. If he did, would I have joined? Maybe, conformity suggests I would.
b. Factors are:
Diffusion of responsibility - more folks don't feel fully responsible to help, assume someone else might.
Desire to behave in socially acceptable fashion - normative social influence
Appear correct - informational social influence
Both led us to rely on reactions of others in the situation
that's an interesting specific situational variable in ATSA village for a newbie. We are taught to save ourselves, not to intervene in an unknown situation as we can't always identify the real villain. I've previously seen folks shoot the cop wrestling with the crazed junky woman at Karl's. If I intervene, will folks think I'm reckless?
c. Being in a big city or a very small town - ATSA is a small town but I don't think that is a real factor in our excercise d. Vague or ambiguous situations - is it a lover's quarrel - the domestic dispute - who's right in all the screaming. I fled and yelled for the sherrif. She can sort out the players. I note in the checking cashing scenario, I didn't act on the weird feel as I was clueless, felt embarrassed about simply bolting out of every place in the village. As soon as someone said Hello: - Glenn in heading for the tall timber? e. When the personal costs for helping outweigh the benefits - In the real world, I have a family to support. I die and they are screwed. Even with insurance, their life goes down the drain - are others really that important to me. I can sacrifice myself but do I have the moral responsibility to lay hardship on my family for strangers? Tough call. If the victim was a true innocent, like the kidnapped child - perhaps knowing the horror of what would happen to her would override the hardship of my family. However, a trailer trash fight - sorry, I vaulted the woman and ran by Jeff.

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Thus, the action decision is complex. It's easy to say you will do XYZ. I do find it confusing to read some tough guys who:

1. I will intervene to save the person in the store
2. I think we should let those in New Olrleans drown and do nothing to help the refugees as they should have listened to the .... blah, blah.

Kind of an altruism disconnect. Do they say they will save the person as it fits their macho fantasy but wouldn't help Katrina victims because :

a. The first action is really for macho posturing
b. The second heartless statement is because of lack of identifying with those poor folks or even racism?

So, these discussions are way to easy on the internet.
 
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