You think shoot sub-moa all day long huh

[georgehwbush]

methinks you are right about there being a virus/worm affecting everyone. i shot two different 10 shot groups with two different rifles and both were sub moa but both had at least one impact outside the one moa circle... it wasn't wind, there was none. i'm bumfuzzeled.


the good news was that both of them the first five all went in the center. it's the reloading, without letting it cool down that is eating my lunch, i think.

 

[stagpanther]

methinks you are right about there being a virus/worm affecting everyone. i shot two different 10 shot groups with two different rifles and both were sub moa but both had at least one impact outside the one moa circle... it wasn't wind, there was none. i'm bumfuzzeled.

I don't think accuracy is a requirement--just consistency--so go ahead and show them off!

 

[FrankenMauser]

I live on an island in the North Atlantic--10 mph and under is "calm" here. I know what you mean by "washing machine" winds.

I know what you're dealing with. I've lived many places.

As for here:
Most places in Idaho see minimal winds. But I live at almost the tail end of the blast zone that is the Snake River Plain.
Winds build from the west, and just get ripping across the plain.
Once they hit the eastern edge, they crash into the little mountain ridges and create crazy eddies, rotors, and swirling nonsense, while maintaining some good speed. ...And our range is on the windward side of one of those ridges, just past the tip of another ridge that is about 2 miles upwind. So we get full wind, plus the washing machine turbulence.

People from other parts of Idaho - especially the Boise area, at the western edge of the SRP - are frequently very surprised when they come to shoot our matches.
"This wind is crazy! Nobody can shoot in this! I can't believe you guys didn't cancel the match!"
'Hah! This is normal. In about an hour, it'll double or triple; and hold that speed until after sunset.'

In December, we had a top-ten, national-level shooter throw a temper tantrum over misses caused by wind. He shot very poorly after that, but not because of the wind. He ruined his own match by losing focus.

It does make load development very frustrating at times, though.
Right now, I have a huge backlog of loads to test. Good days for it are quite rare, and I often find myself doing something else instead (like shooting a challenge or doing long range rimfire testing ).

(US Gov map from the NSF. No copyright issues.)

 

[stagpanther]

Mountain valleys are notorious for turbulent high winds (I used to fly in them; and almost got killed once after crashing)--they behave just like rivers. You also have to deal with things like catabatic winds in the late afternoon and wicking of thermals and dust devils. Wave formation, upper air troughs, collision of frontal systems--yup; it can all happen in the mountains. Given a choice, though, I'd rather be on the windward side than the lee side, though if you're very close to the slope near the ridge smmit on the lee side you'll often encounter a calm shadow zone

 

[stagpanther]

I decided to try something different with the 120 gr senecas in my 25 creedmoor (they are about a buck each and I bought 500 of them, so I'm motivated to find something that clicks with them)--went "off the reservation" and decided to test them with a soft-seat into the lands and used ramshot hunter as propellant. Did 10 shots of the first lower-end charge weight (didn't quite make it for the 10 shot contest, but was pretty satisfied for a first try in winds that were pretty strong 15-20 quartering cross for about half the shots); definite improvement over the other combinations I've tried so I will do a whole ladder when I have the time.

Doing 10 shot groups is definitely more revealing about how a cartridge combination may shoot over a smaller group--but a very real question in my mind is does anyone actually do 10 shot groups for all the load testing?? That could be 100 bullets and the better part of a pound of powder for meduim sizes on up.

 

[tangolima]

Mountain valleys are notorious for turbulent high winds (I used to fly in them; and almost got killed once)--they behave just like rivers. You also have to deal with things like catabatic winds in the late afternoon and wicking of thermals and dust devils. Wave formation, upper air troughs, collision of frontal systems--yup; it can all happen in the mountains. Given a choice, though, I'd rather be on the windward side than the lee side, though if you're very close to the slope near the ridge smmit on the lee side you'll often encounter a calm shadow zone

I remember learning about that when I was getting my license. The general guidance is to keep at least 1000ft above mountain terrains till we gain enough hours. Windward side wind goes upslope. Leeward side wind washes downslope. Get caught in one the downdraft can over power the plane's engine and you keep losing altitude trying to climb.

I shoot >10 shots for "qualification" after working up a load. I can do all that with 40 rounds, in including the final 10-shot group. It is definitely not the best but good enough for me.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

Winds on the windward side of a ridge compress and accelerate as they move upslope, and as rule so do the air masses in general as you gain altitude over the ground accelerate because there is less friction with terrain to slow it down. That 1000 ft clearance rule is one you can live by in lower-performing aircraft. Even heavies get knocked out of the sky every now and then.

 

[tangolima]

I was flying Cessna 152. It had less number of horse power than my car, if I remember correctly. Those were the days when I was young and stupid, and single. Within one year after the wedding, I had to stop. The $100 hamburger was no longer affordable.

Having said that, I was in really windy valleys a few times solo. It was different.

I didn't own any firearms back then. I thought I would need something to keep safe in case I had to crash land while flying cross country. Guess what I had in my pack, in addition to a ham radio modified to cover airband and a primitive GPS receiver (lat-long only)?

-TL

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[stagpanther]

Right now, I have a huge backlog of loads to test. Good days for it are quite rare, and I often find myself doing something else instead (like shooting a challenge or doing long range rimfire testing ).

Look on the bright side --like the NE Patriots or GB Packers who often practice in frigid conditions; you'll have a big advantage in matches that are windy washing machines.

 

[tangolima]

Tried shooting another course yesterday with the same 6mm ARC at 150yd. 1.2moa extreme spread. 2 flyers screwed the pooch. 8 hit the target though.

I started paying attention to cold bore shots. Looks like they all have 5% to 6% higher MV. Hardened carbon in the bore has less friction? This particular load has little or no cold bore shift. It may have something to do with the way I develop the load. I pick the spot that has poi less sensitive to MV variations.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

Tried shooting another course yesterday with the same 6mm ARC at 150yd. 1.2moa extreme spread. 2 flyers screwed the pooch. 8 hit the target though.

Is your ARC an AR (mine is)? That adds an extra dimension of possible dispersion when pushing 10 shots IMO.

 

[tangolima]

Is your ARC an AR (mine is)? That adds an extra dimension of possible dispersion when pushing 10 shots IMO.

It is a $400 budget AR. The only thing that worth any talking about is the EB Shaw barrel. I did quite a bit of tinkering on it though.

Thanks for your encouragement. I will try squeezing a bit more out of it. I'm afraid I'm hitting the wall. For one, I have to limit the chamber pressure to 52k psi.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

1.2 MOA 10 shots for a budget AR at 150 yds is pretty dang good; don't think I could do that with mine.

 

[tangolima]

1.2 MOA 10 shots for a budget AR at 150 yds is pretty dang good; don't think I could do that with mine.

Well, there are a lot of not so good 10-shot groups that I forgot to record.

Looking at my spreadsheet, I have 3 150yd 10-shots groups recorded over 2 different loads. The best one is just over 1moa, worst one is 1.3moa. I glass bed the upper to fit the lower (I have only one for multiple uppers), lap the upper, bed the barrel to the upper with loctite, home brew trigger job, head stamp / weight sort the brass etc.

I newly acquired a $70 barrel in .300 blackout. Have been working on subsonic loads with powder coated cast bullets. The latest one seems promising for 50yd.

-TL

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[georgehwbush]

https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=117277&stc=1&d=1725177738

ok as per your request. not bad for a $295.99 savage axis and $299 swfa scope but it does not take the trophy. it was the last of my five rifles i shot that day and says so.

 

[stagpanther]

ok as per your request. not bad for a $295.99 savage axis and $299 swfa scope but it does not take the trophy. it was the last of my five rifles i shot that day and says so.

I've bought lots of axis rifles; basically took the barrels off and used the receivers as a base for builds with new barrels. They can shoot very well stock, but they seem to require some voodoo and sacrificing of goats to smooth the bores to get to the consistency sweet spot. Good chassis and trigger I bet would tighten that up and get you MOA or under.

Here's an interesting video I found on Utube of a barrel machinist waxing poetic (in a folksy way) on his discovery of a unicorn hummer.

 

[stagpanther]

postscript to 10 shot challenge

While cleaning and putting my guns away today I stumbled across a marlin 917 17hmr I bought years ago for $179 atop which I put an old Nikon prostaff scope which I probably paid no more than $150 for back when I bought it. The rifle is completely stock except that I dropped it into a Boyd's thumbhole stock to look cool. I thought--hmm, wonder how well this would shoot 10 consecutive shots?

After cleaning the bore and putting some foulers through it this afternoon I went out this evening and got this on my first try at 69 yards.

After all that sturm und drang with exotic calibers and hand-loaded ammunition and premium gear--I'm sure there's a lesson in this somewhere; I'm not sure what it is though.

 

[tangolima]

Sometimes it just happens like that. My best shooting.22lr semi auto is a Mossberg, one of the 4 fixer uppers I bought off GB as a group for less than $300. They all needed repairs of different sort. The first time I shot it, I was surprised. Very close to what you have. It is now in the safe. One day I will put a scope on her and let her loose. I haven't done it partly to save ammo. A bolt action goes through rounds slower, and it is easier to single load which I often do.

-TL

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[FrankenMauser]

The boy and I shot a lot yesterday. But I only shot paper with 9 rounds, just to verify that a zero was good.

Sometimes, just ringing steel is more than enough.
No groups to shrink. No optimizations to chase.
Just impacts.

After all that sturm und drang with exotic calibers and hand-loaded ammunition and premium gear--I'm sure there's a lesson in this somewhere; I'm not sure what it is though.

The cheap Marlin rimfires always make you smile.
That is my takeaway.

They work for me, anyway.
I have almost half a dozen of them now.
Bought my first in 1999. An 882SS in .22 WMR, for $189.
Great gun and great fun, chasing rabbits in the desert with iron sights. That rifle took out more plague-infested jackrabbits in one year than anything else I've owned, total.
It got scoped about a year later, and has remained that way. I love it. It will be getting a huge scope upgrade soon. (From 25 year old 3-9x40 Tasco in rimfire rings, to a DIP picatinny base and Athlon Neos 4-12x42. I just need to get the motivation to drill and tap the receiver.)

Now I have an 880SS (LR) that matches. (And already has the DIP/Athlon pair.)
And an 880 with Lyman target sights.
And an 880SQ (early one, with a Marlin 2000 barrel).
All shoot great.
And a 70PPS just for giggles. (I bought it while knowing just how unreliable they are, and found a listing that said the very worn and abused rifle malfunctioned in every way possible. But the price was appropriate. )

 

[davidsog]

After all that sturm und drang with exotic calibers and hand-loaded ammunition and premium gear--I'm sure there's a lesson in this somewhere; I'm not sure what it is though.

That Murphy was a genius.


If it's stupid and it works; It's not stupid.