You think shoot sub-moa all day long huh

[stagpanther]

What? You remember me saying I was taking a "trio" of rifles out? Strange. I don't remember that. ()
Let's just say that things did not go as planned with that one.

I hereby proclaim--due to powers vested in me over the entire world--that you can continue to attempt to get sub MOA 10 shot groups without any funny-accent foryners with questionable motivations telling you how and when you can attempt them.

Their goal is most likely click-through hits--not impacts on paper.

 

[taylorce1]

I really doubt I can shoot MOA for 10 rounds with any of my rifles. I know I can't with any of my light rifles, most of which are sub 8 lbs. The main issue I believe is me, the second issue would be the heat of the barrel on a few of the rifles. My HowA Superlite after three rounds, is too hot to touch and in 100⁰+ heat takes too long to cool. I'd have to shoot it as well with one of my .243/6mm or smaller caliber rifles, it would be difficult to shoot a .270-.375 cal MOA for 10 rounds as very few of my rifles in these calibers have a brake or are threaded for my suppressor.

That said, I did just mount a new optic on my Rem 788 in .30-30. I should take it out and give it a try, as that rifle will shoot small groups for a mag full fairly consistent. But, it does eventually beat a shooter up as it just wears a butt plate. If I'm doing a lot of ammo testing, the PAST pad has to come out.

 

[stagpanther]

Piece of cake IMO--I could do it all day and all night, and blindfolded! These guys with their youtube channels need to learn how to shoot better.

 

[stagpanther]

first attempt with 25 creedmoor!

I recently ordered 500 seneca match bullets from PVA for my 25 creedmoor; I was a bit disappointed when they arrived packed in plastic and covered with some kind of grease that resulted in tarnishing the bullets. They don't look like the first ones I ordered--even the profile looks a bit different, but perhaps I'm imagining things. Anyways, I've loaded 10 of them up using N555 which worked great with the 110 bulldozers (now out of production) and am going to test them and what the heck--I'll call it my first entry into the Franken-friend contest. My plan is simply show up with 10 cartridges and fire them off a cold, clean bore and see what happens. I don't expect to actually get MOA or under--but I'll try my best to be consistent and it will be interesting to see what kind of shift there might be after the first few shots--is Cleckner right that it's all on the shooter?

I had to remove my heavier high power scope and put an old lightweight Nikon on so the rig weighs 10.5 lbs per the requirement.

 

[tangolima]

To hit a designated target or just to group? The former is significantly more difficult.

I watched video of 1moa challenge at 1k yards. Top shooters with top gears. Most of them can't score a hit with less than 5 attempts. The hit rate is no better than 20%.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[stagpanther]

To hit a designated target or just to group? The former is significantly more difficult.

G to the link on FrankenMauser's #8 post for full information--but the on-line contest is a simple challenge--can you do MOA or less with 10 shots at any distance 50 yds or more. If you can accomplish that at a POI target of MOA or less accuracy--you are a record-holder class shooter.

 

[tangolima]

Got it. Just group then. I will give it a try too. I have a few rifles that can do sub-moa R50. 10-shot extreme spread less than 1 moa? It is a much taller order to fill.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Jim Watson]

Geez, what are they shooting at, a beer keg?
The ten ring on a 1000 yard F class target is 10". There have been some 200s shot.

 

[stagpanther]

Well, my first attempt was a failure--though it was an untried cartridge combination off a totally clean cold bore, 10 shots only ( no sighter/foulers) at 155 yards off the hood of my truck. Those are my lame excuses and I'm sticking to them.

Yes, that impact below the 3 was one of the shots. Would have been worth it to know if that was in fact the first cold bore shot, I don't know.

Next attempt I'm tossing the 10.5 lb weight limit and moving up to a higher power scope so I can actually see my hits.

 

[tangolima]

Well, my first attempt was a failure--though it was an untried cartridge combination off a totally clean cold bore, 10 shots only ( no sighter/foulers) at 155 yards off the hood of my truck. Those are my lame excuses and I'm sticking to them.

Yes, that impact below the 3 was one of the shots. Would have been worth it to know if that was in fact the first cold bore shot, I don't know.



Next attempt I'm tossing the 10.5 lb weight limit and moving up to a higher power scope so I can actually see my hits.

Looks like a group I would have at 150yd on a regular day.

Forget the scope and get a longshot camera. It even tells you where the last shot is.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[stagpanther]

I agree, nothing special.

 

[stagpanther]

failed again!

Went out again today--except this time I loaded up 135 bergers driven by H4350 with which I've shot sub .5 MOA in the past and shot at 165 yds. Too lazy to swap out the old nikon scope but I don't think it was a factor other than I couldn't see some of the impacts. Same deal as yesterday, 10 cartridges only with no sighters/foulers off a cold clean bore. Winds were stronger today than they were yesterday with gusty 15 to 20 left cross. Despite that, I didn't change my windage setting from yesterday and there was very little windage drift from my POA.

I'm actually much more interested in what happened with the impacts as the shooting progressed rather than whether or not I met the challenge.

The first 5 shots did make a small cluster at the bottom edge of the target with 2 one hole impacts, with the next three opening up a bit. The last shots seemingly "walked up" in elevation; I did not chrono to see if they were faster and my impression was I held the rifle pretty well through all the shots equally.

Apparently I can't hit a beer keg.

Next time out I'm bringing out my savage axis bulid in 30 BR--if I can't do sub-MOA 10 shots with it maybe I should retire from shooting.

 

[tangolima]

Pretty good shooting Panther.

My RPR in 6.5cm walks similarly as it warms up; high-left to low-right to center.

I plan to shoot a course today, only to find that I only had enough A2230 to load 6 rounds of 6mm ARC. Now I need to work up new loads with W748. Will see.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[stagpanther]

Pretty good shooting Panther.

My RPR in 6.5cm walks similarly as it warms up; high-left to low-right to center.

I plan to shoot a course today, only to find that I only had enough A2230 to load 6 rounds of 6mm ARC. Now I need to work up new loads with W748. Will see.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Thanks--but personally I think Franken's friend spread a special on-line virus to cause 10 shot groups to disperse widely.

 

[tangolima]

I took down 2 5.56 rounds to make 8 rounds 6mm ARC. Not quite regulation but best I could do given I'm presently "powder broke".

It is cold bore at medium speed on bench at 150yd with 3-5mph wind from the right. I had to hold near the right edge of the paper. 1.3moa ish extreme spread. Very probably below 1moa R50. Optics is 6x lpvo.

Not too bad considering the humble origin of the rifle. A budget AR that nobody would care.

Will try harder next time.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[davidsog]

The first shot misses

Your cold bore is always going to be different. Do you account for that? Cold bore zero is always different in every rifle I have shot.

 

[FrankenMauser]

I have things ready to go - have had them ready for several days - but the wind will not calm down.
I'd be crazy to try the challenge when it is blowing 25+ mph and gusting to 50+.

 

[stagpanther]

Your cold bore is always going to be different. Do you account for that? Cold bore zero is always different in every rifle I have shot.

That's really what I'm trying to find out; how and in what way does the first cold clean bore shot differ from the rest of them. Why? Because IMO a cold clean bore is the only real definite starting baseline you can be absolutely sure of repeating in order to pattern how your barrel responds when starting a new shooting session. Each bore is going to respond differently, but there will likely be a "foul in" and warm-up "seasoning" of the bore as the continuous shooting session progresses.

The role of fouling is something that is difficult to pinpoint in a predictable way and is going to vary with each bore IMO. So many variables come into the picture; but I would say in my experience it is pretty evident that fouling in some ways does provide a "balancing" function and at some point there is an increase in repeatable accuracy and consistency. The evidence is pretty obvious--with each subsequent shot the bore is progressively being coated with carbon and metal residue.

I was also trying to pinpoint to what degree the shooter's variability affects the patterning of the shots. I know that in my case that is the source of the greatest variance in my shots. I think that is what Cleckner is alluding to in his comments about the usefulness in dry-firing prior to shooting. I've always done that myself, not so much for flinching conditioning, but as a way to see how the rifle moves as I progress through the hold and the moment of the trigger's break (it's also the reason I shoot 22lr a lot--it's one of the best ways I've found to magnify how the shooter's technique affects the shot IMO) . Beyond all the chemistry and mechanics relative to the hardware and ammo--it actually requires a lot of concentration and coordination to really get skilled at repeatability of shooter's technique for me; 10 shots held and sent in exactly the same way is quite hard to do if you are not equipped with top-of-line equipment and have the luxury of an ideal shooting position with all the time in the world to set each shot up IMO.

As always, other than the fact that I simply shoot a lot, I don't claim to have any expert training or experience to back these observations up and don't claim that they are immutable laws of shooting, just what I've found in my personal fun-time shooting which is really a recreational hobby for me in my sunset years.

 

[tangolima]

A clean bore could be the best reference point. But practically it is impossible to fire every shot from a clean bore. A fouled bore is the reality for most, if not all, shooters. Fortunately once a bore is fouled, say after 10 shots, it performs quite stably, till the fouling becomes excessive.

Cold bore affects poi. That's variation of different dimension. I think is result of thermal expansion, and the bedding of the action changes as the guns warms up. A properly bedded rifle has little cold bore shift. My limited experience convince myself of that. The variation of poi is believed to be predictable. I tried to map the cold bore shift of my 6.5cm RPR with some success. I use that mapping to adjust my hold to compensate. For instance, the first 3 shots from cold bore tend to shift to high-left. I will hold low-right for cold bore shot. The success rate is about 50-50.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[FrankenMauser]

We shoot a 300 yard challenge with .22 LR once a month.
At the last one, a few of us were talking about cold bore shots, and what people are doing to eliminate or compensate for them.
In that case, it didn't really matter, because the wind was pretty nasty and extremely variable (and different every 10-20 yards, it seemed). It took most of us at least 2 shots to get on the 8" target for each 10-round string, just because it was so hard to read the wind.

But one shooter in particular mentioned his rifle having an unpredictable and "really horrible cold bore" which made him always count on dropping the first shot on any NRL22 or PRS22 stage.
I shot that rifle in a match early this year, or late last year, and it made me wonder. I did well, but not great.
So, I went back and dug up the raw scoring data.
Sure enough, I missed the first shot on every stage in that match.