You think shoot sub-moa all day long huh
- Thread starter tangolima
- Start date
FrankenMauser
New member
I've filmed several challenges this year, and had the same problem in nearly every video. So far, all required a 10-shot group.
Bang
Bang
Bang
Bang
"There goes the group. But, I'll be fair and finish it out."
Bang
...
Bang
Walk to target while blabbering about whatever, just to fill the time.
"Yep. That shot blew the group. So, this is what we've got..."
Sometimes it is me. Sometimes it is clearly ammo. Sometimes it is a wind gust.
Sometimes, I honestly just don't know. "Random" flyer.
Such is the life of a shooter seeking precision.
stagpanther
New member
Even 1.5 MOA is exceptional for a 30-30 at deer-hunting distance in my experience, I'd be plenty happy with that.
With 10 shots, statistics is given too much chance to screw up the group. Remember the 1-shot group jokes that we have been telling?
I always shoot at least 10 shots to "qualify" a rifle/load combo. I calculate the group size based on percentage hit rate, rather than extreme spread. R50 has 50% hit rate, whereas R90 has 90%. I only have a few sub-moa R50 combos. They represent the best I could possibly put together. Even with that I am doomed to fail the challenge.
Say for each shot I fire, the probability of getting within 1moa is 75%, which is already going above and beyond 50%, I only have about 5% chance to put all 10 shots within that group. Or I will have to attempt 20 times to have one success. Even with 90% hit rate (sub-moa R90 combo that I don't have), the success rate is 35%, or one success out of 3 attempts.
It is a tall order.
-TL
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stagpanther said:
I'm not upset by any means. The Rem 788 usually shoots better than me. I was just shooting 150 grain Fed Blue Box. That was rounds 9-14 after mounting my new Athlon 1-8X24 scope on it.
A Timney would help the rifle a lot, it has a very "stiff" trigger pull. A rail would be nice to move the scope rearward about ¼-½". I'd like to add a recoil pad as well, it'll make a shoulder sore with 170s after a few mags.
I need to chronograph for sure but this is how the reticle matches up to the factory posted speed of 2390 fps.
stagpanther
New member
It is if you believe it is. The most repeatable aspects that can show immediate improvements are the mechanical ones that once you figure them out you can eliminate them as the primary cause of variabilty/dispersion. That leaves the shooter's consistency/doping conditions as the largest contributor to error--at least that's pretty obvious to me in my shooting.
The shooter is where the order becomes tall.
-TL
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FrankenMauser
New member
I am the weakest link.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
A while back 9-hole review tested mk12 rifle. The best group they got was about 1.3moa, 9-shot at 100yd. In this case, I'm pretty sure it is equipment limited, as Henry is quite an achieved shooter. The group size may not seem impressive, he used the same rifle to consistently hit head sized target at 800yd. That's probably near the end of rope for 5.56 NATO round, even with the heavy 77 grain bullet. He said the bullet still maintained energy similar to .38 spl at that distance, which is totally effective.
https://youtu.be/q3vCPoCNBjU?si=d43UQKt-_b9bZ0Dl
My results are not too far behind. That makes me feel better.
There are other reviews indicating occasionally sub-moa groups. But they are mostly 3-shot wonders.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
https://youtu.be/q3vCPoCNBjU?si=d43UQKt-_b9bZ0Dl
My results are not too far behind. That makes me feel better.
There are other reviews indicating occasionally sub-moa groups. But they are mostly 3-shot wonders.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
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I never saw any point in shooting groups of more rounds than the firearm holds.
Frankly, even a 5 shot group doesn't really tell me squat that is useful. I don't shoot matches where a certain number of shots is required. I shoot things, including game, where only the first shot matters, and possibly the next one, and rarely #3.
I have some rifles capable of shooting MOA or even a bit less, from a bench, taking my time, but in the field, its a different matter.
I always get great groups from my single shots. One round, on target (if I do my part right) what more is needed??
Frankly, even a 5 shot group doesn't really tell me squat that is useful. I don't shoot matches where a certain number of shots is required. I shoot things, including game, where only the first shot matters, and possibly the next one, and rarely #3.
I have some rifles capable of shooting MOA or even a bit less, from a bench, taking my time, but in the field, its a different matter.
I always get great groups from my single shots. One round, on target (if I do my part right) what more is needed??
To hit the target is the point. I can't do it every time. How likely? Fire more shots to find out.
I can hit an 1moa target at 150yd (1.5" diameter) with 50% probability. 1.3moa (2" diameter) with 90% probability. All from analyzing groups I have shots with at least 10 shots.
-TL
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FrankenMauser
New member
Above all else, I am a hunter.
All of my rifles get ammo loaded for hunting, before anything else.
Even my stupidly-heavy ARs and "long range" rifles get hunting loads.
Only after those are settled, do I move on to target loads.
So I completely understand the argument.
I used to say that, "good enough will work, but I want to pick the exact hairs that will be cut when the bullet gets there." [To the deer/antelope/elk.]
I can tell you unequivocally that participating in NRL22 and PRS22, without even breaking into centerfire competitions, has "forced" me to learn more about ballistics, harmonics, and more; and just reinforced that desire for more precision.
Importantly, it has made me much more aware of vertical and horizontal stringing in my groups - whether rimfire or centerfire.
Also wind changes, atmospheric conditions, altitude, and more.
Most importantly, shooting these competitions that include movement, varied (often terrible and awkward) shooting positions, and difficult targets, has made me a better shooter/hunter by engraining into my brain that you ALWAYS take the best support option available. Don't be lazy and take "good enough." ALWAYS take the best support option available.
As tangolima mentioned, shooting groups gives me confidence in load/rifle combinations. It could be high confidence, or low confidence, but some form of such, none the less.
With my son's 10/22 and the correct ammo in my hands, I have high confidence that I can hit a 1 MoA target to 150 yards, and a 2.5 MoA target to 380 yards with one shot. But swap that for my Hammerli Force B1 *or* the wrong ammo in the same 10/22, and my confidence drops to about 30-40% for 2 MoA inside 100 yards.
Confidence in probability is what those groups give me.
Confidence in a clean shot on game. (And paper, steel, or beer cans. But I am a hunter first.)
I guess it depends on why you shoot your groups. If you shoot to predict zero and hit probability, the more data points/shots, the better. If you way impressive groups, the fewer shots the better.
Since I shoot groups to tell me the rifle side of hit probability and to dial my zero in, I find 20 shot groups quit helpful. I think hit probability is what will allow my one shot hunting to be in the vitals.
In the attempt to map cold bore, or first shot, poi shift, I have noticed the following.
1st shot after extended rest time, say 24 hours, always has 2-3% higher MV.
After firing, a rather long wait time is needed for a rifle to resume "cold bore" behavior. 30 minutes seems adequate for .22lr. For center fired, even 50 minutes is not long enough.
I'm still in the process of mapping a rifle. I go to range no more than twice a week. Each time I fire a string of 5 rounds and record the data. It will take at least a month at this rate.
I'm contemplating uploading my rounds by 2-3% to mimic the cold bore shots.
-TL
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And what happens with those rounds when the rifle heats up??
As the rifle heats up, the steel expands which means your bore actually gets a little smaller (and so, tighter). That will increase the bore friction, and might account for why your cold bore shots are faster.
Will this matter? and how will it change things? You'll have to see what happens with your rifle and your loads.
The thinking is that it is the higher MV that causes the shift, and the other factors are minor contributors.
It is never the exact thing, but the hope is it will give good enough emulation.
-TL
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