you hear about the police searching vehicles

I also understand that in the People's Republic of Kali, if you have a high utility bill that's probable cause for a search warrant.
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Actually, you misunderstand. A high utility bill by itself is never grounds for a search warrant. However, it can be used to build grounds for a search warrant with other information in an investigation (and again, buy itself, nothing).
 
Next will be the X-ray scanners and ion sniffers. The "ion sniffer" ARE binoculars for the nose. However, it would probably fail under the courts "common availability/privacy" voodoo.
 
Correct me if I am wrong (I usually am) but a thermal imaging device actually detects the heat coming out of your house (or whatever). And the heat is just tiny microscopic particles/waves.
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Well - not really microscopic particles any more than light is, but then don't they theorize that light rays are made up of core particles...? Heat signatures are just another form of light - a spectrum which we can't see without the aid of the imager. Allthough I may be wrong here too - I'm not a thermal imager expert either! But as I understand it, if you were to shield the heat source, a thermal imager couldn't see it - can't do that with scent. (it travels around corners and through microscopic pores and such. Thermal imagers are much more limited than a dog's nose and it's thier use to directly invade private space that makes thier use on private property taboo...

Still the comparison with dogs and Thermal equipment is even more flawed - dogs aren't allowed on your private property to sniff your house without cause anymore than a thermal imager can look down from ten thousand feet up. Dogs are mostly used on public property to inspect private propety brought there (cars on the highway) or in public property (schools) or private property under warrant or owner's request/permission. Thermal imagers just don't do that very well, but are used to locate and track cars and people most efficiently in the dark.

Dogs have thier limitations too - they may be able to detact an odor from a car on a public street and follow it to the source of emanation, (the odor not the car) but that odor trail must be strong enough and without break enough to do so. That's why dogs are run around a car within touching distance - so they can detect such an odor trail without break and mark the source. And if the trail is broken only dumb luck will pick it up again or it's source. (The handler will recognize the dog had something and run him over that area again.) These limitations have been well documented and accepted by our courts and (for the most part) the public.

One day we'll have technology that will far outdistance a dog's olfactory ability. Thermal imagers are just the tip of the iceberg. The real question is what will be done with such things as a personal ionizer that will tell ya what your neighbor had for lunch when he farted?
 
I have been hearing lately that dogs can even smell cancer. Umm, I'm sorry but that is a little more than sensory enhancement. They are doing something we don't even really understand.
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In the UK, dogs have been found to be 41% accurate (some individual dogs as high as 90%) in detecting bladder cancer by sniffing urine. For years, nurses and physicians have relied on odors as well as other signs to diagnose illness. The goal of the study is to use dogs to identify chemical compounds that could then be isolated as a clinical laboratory test.


http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/329/7468/712

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3682722.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6440

just an interesting side note.......
 
If someone dressed in a cop uniform is standing behind my car waiting to arrest me both the dog and the cop uniform are gonna get smoked before I'm in handcuffs. I haven't done anything wrong, so I have no reason to believe what's going down is legit.
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Yeah, OK, sure. Whatever.
 
No, it's not over and done.

Why is it that some folks are so willing to declare that they'll kill someone who might just be doing their job?

So, if I were a K-9 officer (which I'm not) and my dog alerts to your vehicle, it means that I get to take a look inside.

And you say that you're ready to kill someone--who knows, even me--because I have developed probable cause to search?

Let's say that you are innocent, but you just recently got the vehicle from an auction. Unknown to you, the vehicle had been seized as part of a major drug arrest, and still has the "smell"--not enough for you to detect, but more than enough for a dog to alert on. So, I guess it's time to just slap leather and skin them smokewagons, right?

And people wonder why we have the tendency to draw down on someone that starts to act stupid. Nice move, Bat Masterson.
 
Someone said If you have nothing to hide then don't worry!

What are you talking about......If I have nothing to hide I should be even more worried as my time is worth more to me than it ever will to you.....
I have had the misfortune of being racially profiled on more than one occasion and gotten out of each incident. That many officers will not believe their own eyes sometimes is amazing......A lady cop pulls me over for expired plates(they were in the car with me I simply had not put them on for some stupid reason) and asks for my imformation I give it and she leaves to check me for warrants.......Returns and asks me for no reason that I can see other than I am a minority that lives in a city with a drug problem if she can search my car.......I ask why is it necessary and she responds that she wants to see if I have anything in the car that I shouldn't :eek: finally I realize this is a no win situation and consent.......I am hand cuffed placed into the back of her squad car as she searches my vehicle........
She locates my tags in the car and can now see my story is true(I told her I was going to subway where she pulled me over at and had just gotten the tags by mail).........After returnig my things to me and not finding anything in her search(I thought she might plant something for a sec....) She released me down the road....However I noticed that as she got the cuffs off me and went back to her car she was going to the back of the sqaud car where I had been sitting and to my disbelief she looks under her seat where I had been sitting as if I left her a present :eek: :confused: :( I lost alot of respect for the officers around here with things like this happening.....

I never got a real reason why she wanted to search my car....and I fit the description just don't fly anymore so now they just don't give a reason anymore...If she could have called a dog I am sure she would have
:p

Ps I had nothing to hide and was still a nervous wreck as some officers around here don't have the best records and one officer threatend to send me to the hospital while I was in handcuffs in a patrol car and not a threat to him :rolleyes: (what an a**hole he was, an old fart that I could have beat up with one arm behind my back and I felt really bad letting him attempt to man handle me......but pride be damned I ain't gettin shot to make a point....I went home and filed a complaint that night also the cop was definitely racist as his statements and actions spoke volumes.
 
OK. Here's the situation.

You are driving in a car with expired or invalid plates. A cop sees you and pulls you over.

Are you aware of how many really, REALLY good busts we pick up for something as simple as that? How do you think Timothy McVeigh got caught?

And, yes, the officer went fishing. Any even half competent officer will do so, especially with a traffic stop. The thing that perhaps you were not aware of is this: You have the Constitutional right to say NO, I really do not want my vehicle searched.

The only thing that should come from the officer's mouth at that point is, "Thank you, drive safely".

Yes, there is a possibility that you were profiled. There is one question though that intrigues me.

In your last sentence, you state that you were in the back of ANOTHER patrol car, in handcuffs. Seems to be a bit of a pattern here. Care to elaborate?
 
Sorry, guy, you have no reason to complain. You consented to the search. She was well within her rights to ask for a search....its your job to decline or consent.
 
Now when you deny the officer the consent to search, they just say ok, or do they ask, about firearms, getting a search warrant, that a search is nescessary for their safety. You knew drugs are in the car, but I guess your ESP, did not tell you exactly where they were. I am not sure but isn't the parking lot of a wal-mart, or any other store, private property? The attitude that you have in just running a k-9 dog around a car, at a shopping mall is a little scary, in light of the 4th amend, is a little scary, but you have been an officer for what 20 years, so you know how people react, and can detect lies.

Now if I produce a bottle of prescription painkillers, will the search still be valid? How about a bottle of meth pills? The fact that my medical info is confidential, that is just a little nusiance, Do I have to strip, to show scars, from surgery, x-rays, or a Dr's report, I assume a fake label can be printed up, with some sort of graphics package. It seems to me that inanimate objects, are blamed for problems, from drugs to guns, I guess it is the perspective of the individual. I do not smoke, I never plan on it, but if they try to ban cigarettes, I will protest and fight it. Arresting individuals for their actions seems to be the best bet, not outlawing objects, it seems that taxing cigarettes, has led to an increase in smuggling. Canadians come to the US to buy cheap smokes, regularly.

By the way how do you know what marijuana smells like?, what does it smell like?
 
Marijuana smells like Marijuana, there is no smell llike it. Perhaps burnt Hemp rope, but its not real commonplace to find folks burning the Hemp going down. the road.


When I ask for a consent to search, which is rare, If I am told no, then its over. Done. Thats all. If I have a articulable reason to search, I am not going to ask you, Im going to tell you what im going to do, and youre going to be sitting in the back of my squad. Contrary to what the tin-foil hatters think, refusal to consent is not PC for a search.

If you do produce a bottle of prescribed medicine, and you have a valid prescription, then that has no bearing......unless you are driving while under the influence of a substance that impairs your ability, such as painkillers. Then you will most likely be taken to jail for DUI-Drugs.


I dont make a practice of working drug interdiction at Wal-Mart. However, it is not considered private property, as it is readily accesible by the public. Do some research on the term "curtilege". You have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a a publicly accesible parking lot.


The point was made that I havent been a cop for a long time. However, it takes about 3.7 seconds on the street to develop that "sixth sense", the sense that tells you something is afoot. Every Cop and Detention Officer on this board can tell you that. I dont have ESP, just a sort of developed common sense........there are times when you simply know there are drugs in a vehicle. No way to prove it, you just know. Thankfully, I cannot arest you on that feeling, and if I cant find anything, you are free to go. I will catch you eventually. Same way I acan tell someone is lying...anyone can tell the signs of deceit, its not some magic cop decoder ring I wear, its common sense. Wehn you deal with folks enough, you can tell honesty from deceit. Truth is, 9 times out of 10, if you ask someone if there are drugs in a car, they tell you the truth. I have found a lot of dope that way.

Me: Are there any drugs in the vehicle, sir?
Scrote: Im not gonna lie, sir, I have some (insert drug of choice here) in the console

Ive never figured it out, it really amazes me. On the other hand, the otehr sure thing you can bet on is when they reply to me asking them is there are drugs in the car "Not that I know of"......you can bet there are, but its always someone else's. I dont care if the tooth fairy dropped it under your seat, its yours. Constructive possesion, anyone?
 
Powderman

No prob.....New Years Day......Myself and my best friend had been out celebrating(actually we stayed in and drank but anyway) and woke up the next day with an amazing fact that I had no Hang Over :D but a real bad case of dehydration........water wouldn't cut it I wanted a Gatorade. So I convince my friend to drive me to Race Trak to get one.....Not even a 6 mile round trip and as soon as we pull out ont the first road we get pulled over :( .....My best friend is white and we were in a 2000mustanng and they seemed to single me out :rolleyes: . It was two sherrifs and they both approached one on either side of the car, and we both rolled down our windows and gave them our Id's. They said my friend was speeding but he wasn't. The officer on my side asked me out of the car. The other spoke with my friend and stayed with him. My officer proceeded to ask me if I had any guns, knives,hand grenades, bazooka, or dynamite, to which I responded no but was kinda taken off guard by the question.......and then he searched me, after finding nothing he cuffed me and took me to the back of the patrol car and set me there.....tellling my friend they needed to run my license. After about Five to Seven minutes I came back clean as a whistle and they had to release me......As we drove off my friend burned the tires a little 'cause he knew it was bs. He told me the officer/s were asking questions about how long he had known me and associated with me and the like :(

PS I got the Gatorade but it wasn't worth it :)
 
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They do target vehicles, (among other things like out of state plates) that's a definate fact. Around here they target the newer sporty types and older vehicles. Ever since I got a 2001 Taurus Station wagon I haven't had a cop give me so much as a glance. I look at them though, but they're always looking at someone else. :rolleyes:

Boy, do I gotta watch it when I'm driving my old 77' Chevy truck though.
 
Dude, where do you live? That does sound like they're going overboard.

There are remedies for that kind of treatment; usually it involves getting the officer's chain of command involved. In extreme cases, you might consider going to the State Patrol; usually, they are tasked with the investigation of crimes committed by local law enforcement.

If you can articulate cases of racial profiling and discrimination based on ANY factor, the Department of Justice would probably be real interested, too.
 
I have no idea how long you have been a cop. I know I can not tell when someone is lying, a lie detector can not tell if someone is lying. I do not believe a lie detector is addmissible in court, in MI. I believe my wife has a job, that is at least as important as any officer, because she has to babysit felons, I do not ask her to drive me to my Dr. since it is about 1 1/4 mile away, after she has worked all day, I also sometimes drive her car to get gas, or picke up milk, or something from a store, I guess I am breaking the law, but If i get stopped I will produce my Meds, if some wants to arrest me, that is fine, I'll take the heat. The last concert I went to was at an outdoor ampitheater, Pine Knob, AKA DTE Energy theater, I thought I smelled a skunk, it was the idiots behind us, smoking what looked like a joint, I also have smelled weed that smelled like a cheap cigar.

Interesting that you support a ban on drugs, but would resign, over a ban on guns. They have used the different ways they have found over the years that they used on drugs, to ban guns. Taxing opium, and requiring tax stamps, and not issuing them, using the FDA, to require prescriptions, and saying that certain substances or gun, had no use. Just taking a painkiller is enough for an arrest, do you arrest people for taking benadryl, and causing accidents? Since different substances affect different people, a device to measure reaction time, seems to be the best method for measuring impairment.

I wonder how many people are harmed by illegal drugs, that have additives, and not the drug itself. My Dr told me the most dangerous thing in most prescription painkillers is the tylenol. Now with the media finally coming out with dangers of motrin, alleve, and vioxx, and celebrex, what do you want your family to take for pain. I had taken alleve for a long time, now I hear it damages the small intestines. Anybody whose children takes a prescription for ADD, check what it is, most of them are nervous system stimulants.

White people take meth, and black people smoke crack, the thinking around here is that black people smoke crack, and white people snort powder coke. Crack has much harsher mandatory penalties, for very low weights.

Legalizing drugs, taxing them slightly, not like cigarettes, and booze, which probably have tax rates over 100%, will end violence over dealers who are protecting their product, people getting ripped off, and quality control. Somebody states they do not even drink, I guess if drugs became legal, you would go out, and buy everything in sight, it is a fallacy, patent medicines contained cocaine, and morphine, almost 25% of the nation used them, after requiring the listing of ingredients, only about 11% of the nation used these medicines. Smoking and drinking have been on slow but steady declines, for a long time. A person who has the flu, should be able to go to the store, and buy a joint, a cream, or a patch, of non-adulterated, marijuana, to try to stop nausea, and not be subjected to arrest. It is interesting the amount of laws, that have sprung up restricting people, because of the war on drugs, carrying large sums of cash is illegal, buying certain cold remedies used in the manufacture of drugs is at least monitored.

People have said things like wait until your family is killed by an impaired driver, well none of them have, my aunt, uncle, and their unborn child were killed by a sub-contracter, driving on a snowy road, with a van, he did not know how to handle the van, or did not have the reaction time, or his judgement about the road conditions were wrong, The bottom line is this person could not control his vehicle, the reason is meaningless, it was ruled an accident, no jail time, the only person who survived was my cousin who was a little over a year old. If you kill someone because you can't drive go to jail.
 
Sorry, Danindetroit, that was perhaps one of the most incoherent things Ive ever read.


I realize that I will not change your mind on these issues, as you will not change mine. I will continue to suit up every night, and go out in search of the people who peddle this poison, and I will feel good about it when I get home, the same way I feel good about helping a little old lady change a flat tire in the rain. I dont do it to fulfill some sort of draconian plot to control your life, I do it becuase its the law, and its for the good of the community Im sworn to protect.
 
Powderman

small town Southeast,Tx :) big surprise eh :rolleyes: and I still wouldn't trade my state for a million Holly Woods or Disney Worlds(or disneyland whichever is in Komiefornia :D )

PS I was never treated like this in my home town......I have had no problems(read as: run ins with officers that required me in cuffs or being searched) since I have been licensed to carry concealed but I am on edge for some reason around officers(particularly older white males) in public when I am armed......even though I am legal. Oh by the way I have never been to jail and have no criminal record even with all the times I have been placed in hand cuffs :eek: ....
 
What didn't you understand? I think making drugs illegal, is unconstitutional, taking drugs not prescribed by a Dr. is dangerous, but if someone wants to do it, they should at least be able to do it in the safest manner possible. I get an EKG, every 3 months, along with blood tests, I see my Dr. every month, so he can evaluate me, and notice changes in my condition, I have only 1 Dr. prescribe me medication, so he knows what I take. I understand the risks, and benefits.

I have helped numerous people fix flats, mostly younger people who couldn't loosen the lug nuts. I have let people borrow my jumper cables, have given people jump starts, have helped people push there stalled car out of traffic. When I had a 4 wd, in an ice storm I drove almost 30 yards off an exit ramp, to make sure the occupants in a car, that had slid off the highway, were warm, and had help on the way. I stopped people who were honking at an old lady, who was having trouble figuring out how to pay with a credit card at a gas station. I helped another old lady figure out about her steering wheel lock. I helped a small girl, who got hit by a car, that did not stop at a stop sign, the driver never even asked about the girl, but took off. I stopped a guy who was about to assault a girl, who worked for a lawn fertilizer company, he was an enviromentalist, and thought she was poisioning the earth, he had pulled equipment off her truck, and was approaching her as she tried to get in the cab of the truck. I stopped another guy, who was angry about getting leaves blown on his car, he was shaking a guy who I supervised, I jumped in between them, shielded the guy with my body, and told him to hide around a building. I told the aggressor, that the people at the front office would pay for his car to be detailed inside an out, but he was in a frenzy. The guy drove off, and tried to run me over. I had no weapons, of any kind, during any of these encounters, and the last one I was wearing a backback blower, so my ability to defend myself was limited. During only the last 2 was I getting paid, I didn't know if anybody was armed or not, and I did not care, because somone was in trouble.

The temp has been in the single digits, I was at a store, buying some things while my wife was finishing a pre-sentence investigation. It was about 10:00pm, a guy was outside of his vehicle with no coat on, he was pulled over with his 4-ways on, I asked if he needed help, he laughed and said he was just taking off his coat, but thanks. I try to help people not because I get paid, but because I think it is the right thing to do.

At a Dr.s appointment a guy was trying to sell his painkillers in the office lobby. He was going to 2 different Dr.s, and getting scripts, I told the Dr., and he said he could check on this guy's medication history, I was amazed to learn that the government keeps a database on a person's prescription history. I have seen this guy during my last 2 apointments, I only carry a pocket knife. I didn't do this because I thought this guy was wrong, but to protect my Dr from getting into trouble.
 
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