Y'all forgive me. I done messed up.

It's difficult taking you seriously when you keep jumping from regret to angry indifference. You have been treated rather harshly by one or two posters, so I can understand this to a degree. If I were in your shoes I would have vacated this board days ago. Most of the replies you have received would have gotten under my skin, too, even though the majority of the contributors mean no personal affront.

This issue (S+W) has strong emotional components that affect the opinions each of us hold. But wise decisions are usually based on logic rather than emotion.

The plain, unvarnished facts are that;

Smith and Wesson was purchased by new owners who had full knowledge of what the agreement was and how it was affecting the sales volume of the company. They have a business plan that they feel will show them a profit. They have not made any public statements suggesting that fighting the agreement is part of that plan. They have made statements early on suggesting that they can and will operate the company under the terms of the agreement.

You hint that if S+W were to file some sort of court action to abrogate the contract, that would be an apropriate time to start supporting them. I think that if they merely issued a press release stating they plan to fight the agreement in court that thousands of people would buy new product immediately. I bet their salesmen have told them this repeatedly.

Yet we see no positive action on their part. That does not give me much hope that there are any behind the scenes activities taking place that will further RKBA.

The debate in this thread, boiled down - When is the apropriate time to fund a company whose existance in it's current form is a threat to us on several levels.

1) Now, so they can get enough money ahead to kill the agreement.

2) As soon as they step into court, so they can survive long enough to win in court.

3) After they have had their day in court and the agreement is declared void.

Of the three choices, I will go with number three, because the most important thing to me is to see the agreement gone. Period.

#2 has certain merits, and I could see someone taking that position and justifying his decision with a clear conscience.

#1 has been discussed at great length here. It is a position that does not stand the litmous test of logical scrutiny. Yet it is the position offered up most frequently by those who are rationalizing their desire to buy new product.

"I am willing to give them a chance" is feeding the beast that wishes to devour you.
 
I know this is not pertinent to our discuss but I can't help but think about those missing FBI files when I consider Ed Schultz's actions and those of other S&W Officials.
Click to expand...

Will, you may not be as dumb as I look. ;)

I have a friend who had an employee murdered while investigating Clinton for a video. (The Clinton Chronicles, etc.) Shot between the eyes. There was a lot of that going on down there. And of course, my friends were audited by the IRS every year the Clinton's were in office after the video came out. Are those Clinton body counts real? Yeah, they're real. A few of them might be coincidence. But not all. But back to the discussion...



Sometimes picture stories help us see things clearly. I'll take a shot at telling one that clarifies, rather than obscures:


There's a madman walking the streets with a vial of some biological weapon that he stole from a laboratory. He wasn't always a madman – in fact, he used to be the respected, and even beloved, mayor of our little town. But times change and things happen, and our old friend has lost his mind. He's lost his marbles, bought into some strange doomsday cult that calls for the killing of everyone to bring Utopia. He's dangerous now.

For a while it was all talk. But then his daughter was killed by a drunk driver, and his wife left him. Talk about everything happening at once! He lost his reelection bid, lost his business, and lost his house. All this pressure in just the space of one month. He just cracked up. He's been threatening people.

Then he got into that laboratory. The government won't say what is in that vial, but we know it's going to kill many thousands if it's broken. This town for sure is gone, and probably many others. Men, women, children – all will die an agonizing, slow death if that vial is broken.

Now he's in the town square, surrounded by the men of the town. Some are armed, ready to shoot if they get a chance to nail him before he breaks the vial. Some are saying "Leave him alone, can't you remember all he did for the town in the past?" Some don't know about the vial, or don't believe it's all that dangerous. They're telling the armed men to put down their guns.

He waves his arms around. There's a shot, and he's down. The vial is clutched to his chest. Is the danger over?

Wait. A newcomer to town walks out to him and picks up the vial. He waves it over his head. Who is this guy? No one really knows. He's visited town before. He's been heard to speak approvingly of some of the strange doctrines that the old mayor bought into. What will he do?

Some of the onlookers tell him to put the vial in a safe container that has been provided by the laboratory. He looks at the container, looks back, and then at the vial. He's just standing there. Again, the onlookers urge him to put the dangerous vial in the container. He looks around at the crowd surrounding him. He looks at the vial. He looks at the container. He doesn't move. Again, the urging to put the vial in the container. He speaks. "Yeah, I guess I should do that. I will." Some are saying, "Put down the guns! He said he'll do it!" But he doesn't move. Some guns are still aimed. The vial is still in his hand.


So here's the question: When do we put down the guns?

Is it:

  • Now? "He said he'll do it. We should give him the benefit of the doubt. Show him we trust him."
  • When he starts walking towards the container? "C'mon, he's shown he's sincere!"
  • When the vial is safely locked in the container?
    [/list=a]


    When is it safe? YOUR children's live are at stake. How will you answer?
 
captainHoek says "Will, there's tenacity that comes out of conviction, and there's bullheadedness that comes out of ignorance.

The first is commendable. "

Mike Irwin has that in spades. Hammerheadedness combined with articulation and knowledge. Put a Pit Bull to shame.

Sho glad he not one of the Brady Bunch.

Sam
 
Here's an idea

Call S&W sales. Try to get to an ACTUAL FIELD REP - not just a phone guy, and give him an earful. They'll listen to you and the next thing they'll do is go whine and bitch and moan at management.

I'm calling Monday morning. One small step for mankind...

By the way, has any one seen that new Geico commercial with the squirrels. God that's funny. (I dont work for Geico). Just thinking about it because I'm about to pop one that keeps getting on my feeder. Sheridan? Diana? hmmm... Sheridan.
 
Good idea, Ed. The more pressure the better. But judging from Sam's post, I'd say we may be preaching to the choir. The MMM choir.


I think that's the part where the newcomer was heard to speak approvingly of the same ideas that sent the Mayor over the edge.
 
I went and read the material at C.R. Sam's link. One phrase caught my attention: "electronic firing system."

Well, here's my Paranoid Gun Nut thoughts on this. If electronic systems are installed in guns to render them inoperable by anyone but their owners, an opportunity opens for the government to disable these guns by remote control if they add certain additional circuits. For example, on a much larger scale, avionics in our war planes has to be shielded from an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) that would occur near a nuclear explosion. That is, the EMP would overwhelm the avionics and make them not function, at least momentarily. We add shielding to the circuits and cables to keep the EMP out.

On a smaller scale, GPSs get information from satellites, and by a technique involving triangulation and timing of arrival of the info, they determine within a yard or so your location. As I understand it, in time of war the government, with a flick of a switch, can cause the information coming from the satellites to be modified such that the precision of each GPS is only to the nearest 10 or 50 or 100 yards; something much bigger than a yard. This is to make enemy guided weapons that receive GPS data less accurate.

Suppose the Socialists decide they're strong enough to overthrow the Constitutional government, and their first step is to neuter the only group of people with the backbone and fortitude to resist: US ! by taking away our guns. Somebody throws a switch, and bzzzt! our guns won't fire, disabled by the electronic ... disabling systems.

Maybe we can shield the electronics, but then again maybe the electronics periodically gets a signal from the government that allows it to continue functioning; no signal, no function.

This probably deserves its own thread, so whatever you do, don't respond to this. :) This thread must already be a contender for longest thread.
 
Not trying to be a smart ass here but I looked at CR's link and I'm not sure what the problem is with S&Ws partnering with a University to advance there technology,

The big problem I see is that it's on the 50 activist "women" are stealing the gun safety thing. The NRA has worked hard on that for 100 years. These bastards are going to steal it from us with the help of the media.
 
Ed2, the 'gun safety thing' HAS become the property of the antis. It's their cover for taking away our guns.

So called 'smart' guns are an attempt to limit who can use guns. Period. We don't even have to go as far as Silver Bullet's scenario to see there is a real problem here. (not disagreeing with your thoughts, Silver. Start that thread so I can jump in on the electronics!)

Ask yourself this, Ed: Who is it that is pushing guns that can be fired ONLY by their owner? Is it your average gun owner? Or is it the antis?

It's the antis. There is no legitimate reason to want 'smart' guns. The whole idea behind it is to blame the object for the problem. (I'll allow that some LEOs who don't understand the issues may want them to protect cops from being shot with their own gun. Well meaning, but very dangerous.)

The bottom line is, Ed, 'smart' guns are very bad for our freedom. And, you are known by the company you keep. Is that university pro Constitution? Pro freedom? OR is it a left wing indoctrination center?

Safety Hammer is in bad company.


You know, I keep wanting to make a crack about "Ed2, brute!"

:D
 
Just think of this, Gentlemen...

With an advanced electronic firing system that is smart enough to recognize the owner comes the serious potential for that firing system to be disabled so that the gun is completely unusable.

Would you like the police to government to be able to flip a switch, or run a program on a computer, and be able to kill your gun?
 
"......towards integrating the university's biometric identification system into the electronically fired Authorized-User-Only prototype handguns that use ammunition developed by Remington Arms. ..."

Would you want a defensive, or offensive, handgun that uses propiatary ammunition and cannot be fired by your Wife, Husband, Partner, buddy, student etc etc in defense of your or their life ? One that is dependant on electronics to function even for the legitimate owner ? If the ammunition is so special, how many could afford to practice enough to become proficient in the weapon ?

How often does your puter lock up ?

I seriously doubt that is the type of gun safety the NRA has been advocating for a hundred years.

Sam
 
I can't believe it!

Finally, Mike Irwin and I completely agree on something. I watched a Discovery Channel show on Colt's electronic firing control device, where they had a chip in the gun and another in a wrist-watch. Who in the world would want to rely on 2 sets of batteries, electronics, interuptable signal transmissions and then HAVE to be wearing a watch in order to save your life? They said it was being developed primarily for law enforcement and that it fired successfully over 99% of the time. Once they get it to 110% of the time, it's able to fire for any cop in the entire United States and for ANY citizen that may come to that cops aid, and any other "law abiding person" to include family and friends, and it was free, then I would consider reconsidering! Count me out.

mlk18
 
And Microsoft will write the software! :eek:

Great! A General Protection Fault on your .45! Where do I find the Ctrl-Alt-Delete keys on my pistol?

"Excuse me, Mr. Goblin, can you hold on a minute? I've got to reboot my SIG."

"Hmmm. My magazine just performed an Illegal Operation, and will now shut down? How does a magazine shut down?"


Gives new meaning to the phrase, "Blue Screen of Death", don't it?



Ohhhh nooo, Mr. Bill! :eek:


Hey, what was that sound? Oh, just a thread veering sharply off course and running into some silliness. Silver Bullet, it's all YOUR fault!

Er mebbe I need some sleep. :D
 
"Don't shoot the messenger..."

If I do, I'll be certain that it is with a PRE-sellout Smith & Wesson. :)


"Finally, Mike Irwin and I completely agree on something."

Makes me sick to my stomach too, MLK. :barf: :)
 
Can you say: mark of the beast? There, I thought ya could. The setting: sometime in the future. "I'm sorry sir without your mark, you cannot buy or sell. Your mark activates and deactivates the safety mechanism. (Store clerk notfies authorities as would be firearms buyer leaves store.)"

Not to deflect from the subject at hand but Sig was involved in this before they were bought by German investors.

Beretta on the other hand, has rejected it. BTW, I just bought a NIB Beretta AL390 NWTF 24" 12ga. 3" advantage camo. Does this help to negate any of the previous damage done since Beretta is truly pro RKBA? Mike Irwin it was $600 w/tax. Does that apply to my penance program?

Smart gun technology must be driven by the LEO community to really get a foothold save a Democratic majority get in power and go haywire. Isn't this technology and infringement on our rights? The best thing for us would be if the LEO's flat out reject this. Sad thing is the LEO voices that usually weigh in on these issues are the Ivory Tower folks and not those in the trenches.

Now back to Smith, I said about all I could say in the earlier post. You guys are the best and as stated before, I won't be buying anymore Smiths until marked changes are made known and occur re: the HUD fiasco.

No I am not going back and forth for those that may post that in reply. You see I in San Diego right now and what with that new KALI anti-smoking law, my mind has alot cleaner air to run on. Besides I feel so safe out here with the new gun laws.
 
Won't it be ironic when they "do" come out with smart-gun technology, one malfunctions keeping the intended user from defending themselves.. DO they think there would be NO LAWSUIT?? S&W can rot in hell no matter who the owner is. Until they renounce publicly that blasted agreement, they will not get one penny from me.

Rick
 
Hey Will,I feel for ya man,this whole smith and wesson thing is a very tough pill for me to swallow also,I drive american vehicles also,and I cringe at the thought of giving my bussiness to some foreign company expecially in this econemy,Beretta sure sounds like a foreign company to me,although I hate to bring down the wrath of the silver tounged guru Mike Irwin,Ruger revolvers are crap and trying to find a colt is tough in my neck of the woods these days,but I am starting to agree with the anti smith and wesson establishment,I say cherish that smith as it may be the last one you ever buy new and lets just not buy any more,you see I have sinned also ,my wife bought me a new 629 for christmas last year before I had heard anything of the agreement,I do not know if its pre ban post ban or what but its mine for keeps
 
Captain,
I dont think theyve stolen the saftey issue from us yet. They will soon if we dont do something. The NRA has to hire some big time media consultants and re-position things, re-do our image. As for "Smart guns" -- I bet 99 out of 100 voters havent even heard of the concept -- we have to concentrate on high level messeges. NRA needs to hire to best and brightest in the marketing world.

(BTW -- As for "Ed2", I picked it because "Ed" and "Ed1" were'nt available -- It had nothing to do with that cool ROBOT.)

I was in meetings all day and didnt get to harrass S&W field reps - anyone else? I will sniff around for names tomorrow. - Again, if you want something done, bitch at the sales reps.
 
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