Would you like a Browning 1911 .32 ACP?

[tallball]

I don't carry or use 32acp for SD either. However, if I "had to", the CZ83 would be a good choice. They have double-stack magazines and would hold a lot of ammo.

 

[carguychris]

Delayed response...

Additionally, AFAIK Canada generally bans the use of firearms in self-defense under almost all circumstances.

Without reading the entire thread, is this really true...are our brothers to the north that far out of it? Rod

Forgot to respond to this one...

My earlier post was incorrect and has been reworded. What I SHOULD have written is that Canada generally bans the CARRYING of firearms for defensive purposes, AFAIK including within private property.

Canadian law DOES allow the use of force—including deadly force—in self-defense. However, the law also imposes fairly stringent storage requirements that effectively prohibit leaving loaded firearms readily accessible. There have been cases in which Canadians who successfully used firearms in self-defense have been subsequently charged (albeit not successfully prosecuted) with violating the safe-storage laws; Google Ian Thomson and Dennis Galloway.

 

[reteach]

Might I respectfully suggest that how one "feels" about his or her defensive weapon may not correspond very well to its real effectiveness.

True, of course. I was just responding to the OP regarding a .32 that's similar to a 1911 but smaller. Should have made that clearer.
I feel a lot better about my .357 as a ccw, and I'm practiced and accurate with it. However, 15 rounds of .32 that go exactly where you want them to go is not terrible.

 

[kannonk]

I thought I was going to give up on the accidental shooting idea until I saw these on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGCKFzGAfQ0
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUonA66btgI
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orloQnzBRCw
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDPz4ODYsnw
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK_1yDAqsnM
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZcGP0oCQzA
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkDN66XBm2I
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv2YmSJ2itk
The point being this: most of the time, (well maybe not all of the time), when someone accidentally shoots themselves or someone else, it's not always in the head. If you want to shoot at a firing range with a .32 ACP handgun, the statistics I've already posted show even a .22 lr can be more lethal.

"...a Youtube video..." YouTube is not a source of reliable, accurate, info."

I mean looking at gel ballistics at least gives you a visual way of seeing the differences between some gun calibers.

"Long, rimmed, and straight-walled cartridges inherently don't feed well in autoloaders."

I didn't mean to take an actual .38 Special and put in a pistol. I mean along the lines of how they developed the .357 SIG. According to Wikipedia: "...was named "357" to highlight its purpose: to duplicate the performance of 125-grain (8.1 g) .357 Magnum loads fired from 4-inch (100 mm)-barreled revolvers, in a cartridge designed to be used in a semi-automatic pistol..." And if there's something about .32 ACP cartridges that causes rim lock, why doesn't any manufacturer attempt to modify the cartridge to fix this? Actually, I have an idea. They could modify the case of the .32 ACP, round out the bullet diameter to exactly 8.00mm and call it an 8mm ACP. Then they could make the equivalent for revolvers and call it 8mm Special. Then make an equivalent of the .327 Federal Magnum for pistols and call it 8mm Magnum. In my opinion, there would be a case for an 8mm Magnum. Why? Because I read once a police officer had to use a .357 SIG to get someone in a farm tractor because of the thickness of the glass (another officer I think shot with a 9mm but couldn't get him). So if penetration is desired in some cases, then a smaller round than a .357 SIG could penetrate more. And do it with less recoil.

More later I guess...

 

[TailGator]

when someone accidentally shoots themselves or someone else, it's not always in the head.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone advocating otherwise. The point folks are trying to get you to understand is that selecting a less effective ammo does not make it safer in an accidental shooting, just less effective for when you need it. Safety comes from conscientious gun handling; everything else is secondary. Can you imagine defending yourself in a civil suit brought on by your accidental shooting by saying in court, "I shot him by accident, but I used a smaller caliber than I could have?"

I have no idea where to start in answering your ideas for a new cartridge.

 

[random guy]

I'd probably find more interesting a Hi-Power in .30 Luger with improved capacity (at least 15+1) and at a reasonable price. Might as well make the trigger DA/SA while I'm dreaming. Highly unlikely to happen though.

I wonder if anyone makes an M&P conversion barrel.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I was thinking if Browning made a 1911... .380 85% of the size, then why not a Browning 1911 in .32 ACP 80% of the size of a 1911?

I think you would find that, for practical purposes, this theoretical .32 pistol would be almost exactly the same size as the .380 version, because the .32 ACP case head is semi-rimmed and thus almost exactly the same size as a .380 case head. Similarly, the loaded cartridges are almost exactly the same length. This generally means that the breech face, slide (or bolt), and magazines will be near-identical; in fact, for many pistols, they ARE identical.

The Browning 1911-22 is not a 75% replica of the M1911A1. Both the .22 and the .380 are 85% scale. Based on the infor carguychris provided, it would seem that all that's needed would be to sleeve the barrel of a 1911-380 down to .32 ACP and the job's done.

If the silly guns weren't so expensive it might be a fun project to tinker with. Considering that they sell for around $600 and up (street price), they're too expensive to tinker with. Nice little toys, but I've shot both the 1911-22 and the 1911-380 and they just don't feel like "real guns." (That opinion is shared by an NRA instructor friend, who joined me in trying both side-by-side).

 

[Model12Win]

.32 ACP shells are too expensive for what they are. The .380s and better yet the 9mm Maks hit a lot harder and guess what? They're less expensive.

There is NO point to a .32 ACP IMHO.

 

[tallball]

There certainly IS a point to 32acp.

I have half a dozen or so and very much enjoy shooting them!

 

[Bill DeShivs]

There is plenty of point to .32 acp!
There are millions of guns chambered for it.
Because YOU can't see a need for something, doesn't mean there is no need.

 

[kannonk]

"I'd buy a newly made Colt M1903-with a steel frame."

How about one with a more modern design and modern of safety features?

"ATF handgun import points system and much of the NFA in the United States."

Thanks for letting me know about this because if I ever decide to start lobbying politicians on both sides of the border, I'll know what to start looking at.

"Its the first time though that I've heard someone consider the possibility of shooting themselves ( or others) as a determining factor in caliber selection."

Well, it might be a tiny side argument. Because the .32 ACP to me fits directly between a .22 lr and .380 ACP. It just seems like a reasonable caliber to shoot that gives you enough but not too much recoil.

"I think I will just stick with my Beretta 81..."

Honestly, if Canada would make the .32 ACP legal in Canada again (at least for medium-sized weapons) I wish Beretta could make a 4.2 inch or 107mm barrel version for Canada. The only thing I might be concerned about would be the metal warping inside after several thousand rounds as someone here said. The only other guns I could have considered are now either scarce or discontinued like the Walther PP in .32 ACP, the Sig Sauer P230 (or maybe P232) in .32 ACP and CZ 83 in .32 ACP. There's also the Tanfoglio FT7 made for .32 ACP except I can't seem to find that anywhere in the U.S. There are pretty good reviews overall for guns from Beretta, Walther, Sig Sauer, CZ and Tanfoglio. (Well, there may be some exceptions for Beretta or Walther but it may depend if they either got a defective model or if certain Walther models were made by Umarex.) Anyway, one of the reasons I was asking about a Browning was because I like the 1911 in 85% size and also it's a recognized brand. I wonder if Ruger would ever try it. I mean would anyone be interested if Ruger made a .32 ACP rifle?

"I wouldn't want hurt someone if I shot them??????"

I wonder if they'll reveal what kind of gun calibers were used in the Cincinnati shooting because there's only 1 decease at this time.

"To the OP. Welcome to the forum. I wonder why he hasn't been back?"

I'm back. It just took me time to start reading the responses.

"I can just "feel the bones" of the 1911 in my 03 Colt."

Can you tell me what you mean by "feel the bones"?

 

[kannonk]

"The best-shooting 32acp I know of is my Beretta Model 100. It is on a light alloy frame, but has a 6" barrel and adjustable sights. It is a tack driver."

This may be a superficial question but can you define "tack driver"?

"there must be some serious thinking disability in the Land of the Maple Leaf!"

Well, maybe a couple of my arguments weren't stellar but I'm getting some ideas from comments here.

"At best, the difference in recoil when shooting .32 ACP will be 37% less than .380 ACP, at worst the difference will be 19% less."

This seems like an argument to prefer the .32 ACP for shooting at a range.

"and function reliably with "bunny fart" loads"

What are "bunny fart" loads?

 

[DaleA]

tack driver---very accurate.
bunny fart---very light, low recoil, low noise load.

kannonk, welcome to the forum, you posed a provocative question.

No offense, just curious, how much shooting experience have you had?

 

[carguychris]

I didn't mean to take an actual .38 Special and put in a pistol. I mean along the lines of how they developed the .357 SIG.

Such a round would do very little that 9mm Luger won't do, cheaper.

FWIW S&W toyed with such a round in the 1950s, albeit primarily for precision target use. The project was stillborn.

...if there's something about .32 ACP cartridges that causes rim lock, why doesn't any manufacturer attempt to modify the cartridge to fix this?

Because the resultant cartridge would be nearly identical in capabilities to .380 ACP, and there isn't much market demand for a cartridge to fill this tiny niche.

...make an equivalent of the .327 Federal Magnum for pistols and call it 8mm Magnum.

A couple of such cartridges already exist: the 7.65 Parabellum aka .30 Luger—the parent cartridge of 9mm Luger—and the 7.62x25 Tokarev. There is already some latent interest in developing these cartridges for defensive use, as shown by random guy's last post. BTW I believe that both cartridges are legal in Canada.

7.65 Para will fit and function in almost any 9mm pistol with very minor modifications—in some cases, a barrel swap is all that's needed. Interest in 7.62x25 has been stoked by recent commercial sales of many vintage Warsaw Pact surplus pistols; many U.S. shooters bought these pistols to take advantage of abundant and cheap milsurp ammo that has since dried up, leaving some folks searching for another mission for the pistol(s) they already own.

The problem is that there's arguably little civilian justification for a pistol round that penetrates more than 9mm Luger, as evidenced by faltering interest in .357 SIG. Civilians seldom have a legitimate defensive reason to shoot through windows, walls, or heavy vegetation. Although .327 FedMag arguably shares this disadvantage, it also allows a 6th round to be crammed into the cylinder of a small pocket revolver, and some shooters (albeit not many...) are willing to accept the risk of excess penetration in return for 20% more capacity.

...if Canada would make the .32 ACP legal... I wish Beretta could make a 4.2 inch or 107mm barrel version [of the 81] for Canada. The only thing I might be concerned about would be the metal warping inside after several thousand rounds as someone here said.

What you talking 'bout, Willis?

There's no such problem with the Beretta 81, and I don't see where anyone has brought it up here.

bunny fart---very light, low recoil, low noise load.

It should be mentioned that such loads are generally most common for use in revolvers and lever or bolt rifles, since they don't require a certain amount of recoil in order to function properly.

Using such loads in an auto pistol usually requires carefully tuning the recoil spring weight to function properly with a given load. In general, only competitive target shooters have a compelling reason to bother with this.

 

[tallball]

By "tack driver" I mean "extremely accurate pistol".

It was made by Beretta. It has a 6" barrel. It has nice big adjustable sights. It shoots a round without much recoil. They aren't common. My friend at the LGS had never even seen one before. If you want to do some extremely accurate shooting with a 32acp pistol, this one should be on your list.

I am in no way endorsing 32acp for SD. I don't really care one way or the other about having a 1911 in 32acp. But I do know of at least one model of pistol in that caliber that is inherently accurate.

 

[TruthTellers]

.32 ACP shells are too expensive for what they are. The .380s and better yet the 9mm Maks hit a lot harder and guess what? They're less expensive.

There is NO point to a .32 ACP IMHO.

Are you saying that there's no point to .32 ACP in a 1911 or no point to .32 ACP at all?

 

[Cheapshooter]

Are you saying that there's no point to .32 ACP in a 1911 or no point to .32 ACP at all?

No point at all might be the opinion of some. Considering al the 380 acp mouseguns nearly identical in size to those chambered in 32 acp.
However, for those who are really recoil sensitive, and for some reason don't want to learn to get over it, the 32 acp has appeal.
I do have both. An early generation LCP in 380 which I carry every day. Also a Kel-Tec P32 I bought just for grins that never gets carried.

 

[kannonk]

"The best evidence is the fact that they are no longer in general usage among police and military forces."

Would anyone have any statistics from Europe on .32 ACP fatalities or failure to incapacitate?

"Some people want to say that any caliber other than a 9, 40, or 45 is worthless. All calibers can and have been deadly."

I think some people assumed I was being irresponsible by claiming the .32 ACP might be a "safer" round at the firing range. But even though the .32 ACP is not the same as a .380 ACP, I saw a video on Youtube where someone shot a guy going through his door with a machete. I think I heard two shots but the guy just laid there whaling from the pain. I believe he was shot in the torso area but he didn't die. See, this guy was pretty much "incapacitated" but he did not die. (By the way the guy who shot him ended up in prison even though it looked like a clear case of self-defense but whatever...) See, if someone did shoot someone in the chest one or two times with a .32 ACP they might be incapacitated buy may survive. So, there's that.

"I know a woman that spent 5 years in prison because she loaned someone a 22 short and the other girl killed a man with it."

Seems to me some prosecutors in the U.S. are overly zealous including that weird plea deal system where they absolutely want someone jailed with less time spent in court to save money.

"Ok, but this almost imperceptible difference in recoil is why I dislike shooting a P-3AT, and don't mind shooting a P-32. Also why I find the 1903 pocket hammer-less to be almost like a .22, and way more pleasant than my BERSA .380's."

Thank you for your feedback on .32 ACP handguns. See, this doesn't seem to be a pointless thread after all. Do you care to explain the difference in perceived loudness between the .22, .32 ACP and .380 ACP?

"Its just a dream folks, not ever going to happen..."

If you believe in the dream... just kidding. Actually, you may be right. It very well may be a dream that may never happen. I wanted to talk about this though because sometimes I think it's just a matter of perception. I mean the .380 ACP was almost gone years ago yet it was resurrected. So there may eventually be a glimmer of hope for the .32 ACP. (Or, maybe some manufacturer may come out with a revised casing to eliminate the so-called rim lock problem.)

 

[OldMarksman]

I mean the .380 ACP was almost gone years ago yet it was resurrected.

The .380 had been a police and military round, but it lest favor big-time.

It's "resurrection" was surely due to the change in laws permitting concealed carry, and the small size of .380 pistols.

So there may eventually be a glimmer of hope for the .32 ACP.

Why?

(Or, maybe some manufacturer may come out with a revised casing to eliminate the so-called rim lock problem.)

Why would anyone undertake such a project?

 

[DaleA]

kannonk--I've admitted this is a 'provocative' question and it has generated a lot of discussion.

I've also tried to answer two of your questions.

I'm just curious as to how much shooting you've done. Could you tell us your background?

I've asked before and I won't bug you by asking again and you CERTAINLY have the right to say 'none of your business' but I am interested in what shooting experience has led you to your opinions.