Won this rust locked up S&W 1917 snubbie at auction yesterday

[Bill Akins]

Got those critical parts just in case for myself and friends. S&W 1917 parts don't grow on trees! Some places have them, but the price looked good for all those parts in one package. Figured they'd be good to have.

I used to be a sheet metal mechanic/riviter for Piper aircraft back in the 1970's. Done my share of auto bodywork too. Got all kinds of grits of sandpaper I use all the time for metal working. From heavy coarse grit to 600 ultrafine grit. Mill, lathe, vices, Beverly sheer, fine blade bandsaw, grinding wheel, polishing wheels, air compressor, air tools, files and small fine jeweler's files. Most tools needed to do just about anything by hand excepting multiple production. Made and fixed lots of parts and things.

Just made a tiny rear blade sight from scrap steel for a friend who came over yesterday for his adjustable target sighted model Pietta 1858 black powder revolver. His orig adjustable blade rear sight had broken from a drop and he was having difficulty finding a replacement rear blade. I looked around my shop and found a piece of scrap steel that I could sheer and grind and file to work.

I had to file thickness and all over as well as sand thickness til it had no tool marks and fit very tightly in the base. The adjustable rear blade was a bad design by Pietta and the rear blades routinely fall out of them since there is nothing designed in them to keep them in the base notch if a left or right windage screw become loose and they will fall right out.

So I just made him a fixed rear blade that was driven down very tightly via hammer into the base slit for the blade and won't move unless you use a punch and hammer to move it left or right. I had to flat file and flat sand the thickness of the blade to be just right to fit very tightly into the base slit. The old file or sand a pass then check for fit, until it was close enough to square body hammer in with friction holding it very tightly. I did not put the two left and right adjustable windage screws back in but put them in a teeny baggie for him to store away.
I could always make it thinner to work with those windage screws if he wants, but then we are back to the blade falling out if either screw gets loose, just like the bad design factory ones. I like this idea better. No lost sight blade.

With the rear blade firmly hammered into the rear sight base, then with a triangular jewelers file I made my rear blade notch mark. I lined the mark up with the middle of a screw holding the top base on it its middle. That would be directly in line with the front sight and bore. Just eyeballed it carefully. Started off filing my notch with the triangular jeweler's file, then switched to a round jeweler's file and using that I filed the notch just about to the bottom of where it was supposed to go, then switched to a square jeweler's file to finish filing the bottom of the notch square on rear blade sight notch. Rounded the top corner edges of the blade so it won't catch on things. Tiny part to make. Cold blued it afterwards and it looks like a factory job.

Too late to shoot it here yesterday but he took it to the range today and I called him afterwards and he said it hit bullseyes for him and his friend and friend's wife who all shot it with its conversion cylinder firing .45 colt cartridges. I just eyeballed making it for windage and elevation and making sure it was tight when I installed it. He says it is dead on target and needs no adjustment. I was happy it worked so well for him.
I got lucky the first time and didn't have to file it down to lower the strike or adjust windage. Sorry no pics. Got it done after dark yesterday and too tired to bother taking pics. Might take some when he brings it over again one day.

I'm ordering a new deburring wheel from Enco to re-finish my S&W 1917 snubby. It doubles as both a deburring wheel and a polishing wheel. I've used them before and they will smoothly take burrs, pits, rust, and anything else out and work as a really really fast buffer. You can also polish to a mirror finish with them too. It will fit right on my buffer motor 1/2 inch shaft. At a glance it looks like a stone grinding wheel, but it isn't. If something needs a heavy buff out, it will do it much much faster than a standard sewed cloth buffing wheel. Then use the cloth buffing wheel with rouge to give it a jewelers polish quality finish.

Flat spots of course I will sand and dress up with sandpaper on a flat block or surface. Then I can make my revolver have a mirror finish with the deburring wheel followed up by a SUPER mirror polish on my fabric buffing wheel with rouge. Then clean the rouge off and get it hot tank blued with a mirror blue finish. That's my plan as soon as the Enco deburring wheel arrives.


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[10-96]

I don't have my book handy, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it's my gut feeling that none of the 1917's had the logo on the right side- unless it was one of the last one's squoze out of the plant.

 

[Bill Akins]

But 10-96, it is definitely a 1917 sideplate. I checked it against my other S&W 1917. Same sideplate. I just haven't seen any 1917's with the sideplate logo before. Must have been some production run of them with that logo, but when?
I've heard that S&W carried the 1917 in their catalogs until around 1947 or sometime in the late '40's. Maybe it was a run of commercial S&W 1917's made with a sideplate logo. That's the mystery. What production runs of S&W 1917's had the S&W sideplate logos and when?






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[EdInk]

I still feel your initial investment was too high but I am interested in seeing the completed restoration.

 

[gyvel]

But 10-96, it is definitely a 1917 sideplate.

No, incorrect.

It's definitely an "N" frame sideplate, and that's as far as you can go with it.

As far as I know, no military production 1917 had the logo emblazoned on the sideplate. The sideplate more than likely came from a commercial 5 screw "N" frame gun.

 

[stu925]

I'm really interested to see how the blue job comes out, sounds like you've got the polishing aspect down to a science. From what I understand the polishing job makes all the difference in how the blue job comes out. Take pictures as the work progresses for us.

Stu

 

[Bill Akins]

That's right Stu, the finish will only look as good as the polishing on the metal. I'll continue to post pics of the continuing project.

Several days ago I ordered a brand new, old stock, ejector rod for my project snubby S&W 1917. Got it off e bay. $23.69 including shipping.

They have more. Here's a link if anybody here needs a new S&W 1917 ejector rod.

WWI S&W Smith & Wesson 1917 .45 Revolver Extractor Rod P-1057 | eBay

Then today I ordered a 3M, scotchbrite, medium grade, deburring wheel, from Enco, that not only deburrs, but also doubles as a polishing wheel without any need for rouge. Using this wheel cuts the time WAY down on buffing. Much much easier to buff out a part than just using a sewn fabric wheel using rouge.

You can actually get a mirror polish out of it. I've used one before and it works real good and fast. I'm going to use it to polish out the parts that aren't flat and able to be flat sanded to get pits out of my snubby 1917. It should be here by tuesday. I can't over emphasize how much time you can save using this to buff and polish with compared to using a standard fabric wheel with rouge.

It looks like a stone wheel, but it isn't. Basically it's a very dense, scotchbrite wheel. Really gets the buffing/polishing job done a lot faster and without using rouge. It has a 1 inch hole, but I've got a 1/2 inch to 1 inch shaft adapter to put it on my buffing motor.

Enco has these on sale right now. Reg $68.59, on sale right now for $49.89 with $7.95 UPS shipping.

Here's a pic and the link in case anyone here would like to pick one up from Enco. Just make sure you get the aluminum oxide one at the below link. They have silicon carbide ones that are even finer grit, (mine's medium) but the silicon carbide ones wear out faster. And the aluminum oxide medium one I got will still do a mirror polish. I know because that's the same medium grit aluminum oxide one I used to polish with once before at a friends machine shop. In fact a quick phone call to my friend is how I got the link.

After using this wheel, I'll follow it up with my fabric buffing wheel with rouge though. Just to get that final finish real SUPER fine jeweler's mirror polish. Where it practically looks like it's bright nickel plated. Then hot tank blue it. I hope to get that real blue Colt type blue, instead of just black. Know someone who still does that kind of true bluing. EPA shut down the major manufacturers from using the chemicals to get that true deep blue. That's why everything is black now instead of blue. But if I can't get it, I'll settle for a mirror bright black so called blue job.

Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Tools and Shop Supplies

So once my new ejector rod and deburr/polishing wheel come in, and I get the chance to work on it, then I'll update you on my progress of restoring my S&W 1917 snubby.




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[Bill Akins]

Gyvel wrote:
Quote: Bill Akins wrote:
But 10-96, it is definitely a 1917 sideplate.

Quote: Gyvel wrote:
No, incorrect.

It's definitely an "N" frame sideplate, and that's as far as you can go with it.

As far as I know, no military production 1917 had the logo emblazoned on the sideplate. The sideplate more than likely came from a commercial 5 screw "N" frame gun.

Great! Even better. Thanks for that info. I'd rather have the commercial 5 screw N frame sideplate. But at least I can use it in my N frame 1917 if I ever want to.




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[Bill Akins]

I couldn't stand it. I had to do something on my S&W 1917 snubby while I'm waiting for my deburring/polishing wheel to come in. I decided to take my 1917 snubby apart and give it a good internal cleaning as well as scrub it really hard with some coarse steel wool. I was surprised at how little rust it actually had on it. Results seen below.

The internals looked almost brand new. Nice straw color on the case hardened internal parts as you can see especially well in this pic where I turned on my camera light which shows up the internal parts better.....

Once my new old stock ejector rod arrives to replace my slightly bent one, I could just put it all back together, put a front sight on it, rub some cold blue on it, and call it a day.
But I want something a little nicer and more dignified for this proud old war horse than that. Going to polish this until I can see my teeth clearly in it. Then hot tank blue. Why not. Not that much work and besides....I enjoy it!
Not only do I want to bring this fine old revolver back to life, I want it to dance!

That's all I can do for now until my deburring/polishing wheel arrives. Will update after that.




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[bull bob]

Bill,

I am glad you posted that ebay link. Not so much for ebay, but I am in need of one of those ejector rods also. Numerich has hasn't had one in a year or more. Maybe now I can get my 1917 back into shape. Thanks. And by the way, I like the looks of where you are going with this rebuild.

bull

 

[Bill Akins]

Glad I could be of help Bull Bob. Be sure to post some pics of your S&W 1917 when you get your ejector rod, get it installed and operational. Love those old S&W 1917's.



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[gvw3]

Show us the pix when it is done. Please borrow a good camera. Looks like a fun project.

 

[Tom Matiska]

Bill..... some interesting info on rust removal to read up on while waiting for your buffing wheel and scotch brite to come in. This aviation site has a good tutorial with pics on electolytic rust removal. About 15 clicks down it shows the use of washing soda(cousin to baking soda), a sacrificial piece of steel, and a battery charger to turn one badly rusted corvair crankshaft into one that required minimal refinishing.

I'm going to experiment on some slightly rusted reloading equipment in the basement... if it works I may be less afraid to buy a rusty gun myself.

http://www.hainesengineering.com/rhaines/corvair.htm

Tom

 

[gyvel]

Since you're going to refinish anyway, just use either some pool acid ("muriatic acid") or naval jelly. The pool acid will require some minor neutralization (baking soda) after you remove the rust, then immediate coating with some light oil.

 

[Bill Akins]

Thanks for the tips on electrolytic rust removal fellas. But there is hardly any rust left on my revolver now and I don't think I'll need to use that technique for this revolver restoration. But thanks for the info and I'll definitely remember it in case I ever need to use it.

No pics this post, but here's the latest on my 1917 S&W snubby project revolver.

Last evening I installed my new ejector rod to replace the one I straightened but was still a bit buggered on the big knurled end, hence my reason for getting the new old stock one. Looks great. But I had to do a little hand fitting/filing. The cylinder was hard to close and hard to open after installing the new old stock ejector rod. So I had to file the end of the ejector rod that goes against the spring loaded pin in the underbarrel lug and then polish it with 600 grit sandpaper. Worked like a charm then. Nice and smooth open and close. Dabbed a little cold blue on the end of the ejector rod and looked great.

But I was still having a bit of drag on turning the cylinder with it loaded. I unloaded the full moon clip and noticed burrs on one side of the moon clip from when it was stamped out manufactured. I filed them down and got rid of them, then touched it up with cold blue. (Note to self to do that on all my moon clips).

But even after taking the burrs off the moon clip, I still had drag on turning the cylinder. Then I saw and felt what was causing the dragging. There was a burr I could see and feel all along the length of the cylinder pawl/hand channel on the inside of the recoil shield that I could see when I opened the cylinder. It would catch my fingernail and was scraping the cartridge heads and causing the dragging.

Looked like it was that way from the factory! So I carefully filed it with my mini jewlers files. Saw another burr on the firing pin hole. Filed that down too. Saw a couple of high spots on the recoil shield so I filed and sanded them a little to remove them so that everything was contoured into a graduated slope rather than sharp edges on the recoil shield where the cartridge heads came into contact there.

After that everything worked like a Swiss watch. No more dragging and scraping on the cartridge heads. Cylinder turned freely. Made my evening! Evidently even though this was a lend lease revolver to the Brits, I don't think this revolver saw much actual use firing. The cylinder locks up with almost no play on hammer back. With hammer fully down and trigger held back, you cannot feel any play at all in the cylinder. Amazingly it is the tightest cylinder on any revolver I have ever owned! I mean there is ZERO play in the cylinder with hammer down and trigger fully depressed. When I took off the sideplate to give the internals a good cleaning, the internal parts looked like brand new and are nicely case hardened and have a nice straw color. No rust on the internal parts at all.

Having rubbed the revolver a lot with my fingers, (which I always do with a gun once I have removed rust and am going to refinish it) I had felt a few little nicks here and there that caught my fingernails as well as high spots caused by stampings like the British crowns they stamped all over the revolver. I carefully filed and 600 grit sanded all the nicks and high spots down being careful not to file out the stampings, but just to lower their raised edges so everything was smooth.

Then even though I'm going to mirror polish everything before it gets hot tank blued, I rubbed some cold blue on the exposed metal to temporarily protect it as well as to see somewhat what it would look like after I refinish it. It looks as good as a modern but used revolver looks as well as operates now like a Swiss watch. All I have in it for repair costs thus far is $23.00 for the new ejector rod and my time hand working it. Really happy with how it is turning out. I could just put a front sight on it and keep it cold blued like it is and it would still look and operate great. But I have nicer more dignified plans for the old war horse.

Except for a few very small surface spots of rust on the frame and cylinder, there is no rust left on the revolver. Those small surface rust spots will buff right out on my buffing wheel. After cleaning it up real good I was actually surprised at how little rust there actually was on the gun. When I received it, it was mostly dirty and with dust and lint in the cylinders and bore and just a little rust that a good brushing with steel wool and a little 600 grit and an oiled brush knocked right off. She looked like a Sow's ear at first but has cleaned right up to a silk purse. The cut barrel bore is bright with excellent rifling as I ascertained after shooting six shots through it.

One of the Smith and Wesson forum members has a shot out rifling snubby barrel that he is going to replace, and he's going to send me his shot out snubby barrel. It has an original 1917 half moon front sight on it that I'm going to use on my snubby barrel. Since his barrel had been cut to a snubby and had the original 1917 half moon front sight on it, that means his front sight had to be cut from the original end of the barrel (since the sight was integral with the barrel when manufactured) and that means I should be able to heat it up with a torch to melt the solder that obviously held it to the barrel. Because since there were no snubby 1917's factory made, that means that sight had to have been cut off and soldered to his snubby barrel. His is nickeled though, so I'll have to remove the nickel off the front sight. Gonna be a week or two before he sends me that barrel.

In the meantime, that gives me plenty of time to get it all mirror finish buffed out. Will post more and with pics when I get that done.


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[Mike Irwin]

Is that replacement side plate set up for the wing style hammerlock or the newer sliding L that came into use during world war 2?

 

[Bill Akins]

Mike, I figure you're talking about that extra spare side plate I bought with some other parts recently right? Okay, I'm not that knowledgeable about it so I have no idea. But I sanded it down to get rid of most of the pits, rubbed some cold blue on it to prevent further rusting and took some pics of both sides of it to show you so you can see it and hopefully that will answer your question about it.

This is the best my camera will do. I checked and it won't shoot close ups any better since it doesn't have a close up setting.
Front side. S&W logo shows up much clearer, sharper and better in reality.

Back side looks like new. This side should tell you what you wanted to know Mike. Let me know what it is set up for will you Mike? I'd like to know also.

Since I was taking some to show you that sideplate to hopefully answer you question Mike, I took a few more.

Now remember, this is not the completed project. Just nicely cleaned up for now. Will be refinished and with front sight installed when I'm done.

Right side when I received it very dirty and lots of surface rust....

Same side today, the rust is gone, but she will get looking even better soon. That cold blue is just temporary....

Left side when I received it....

Left side today. The rust is gone.

 

[Bill Akins]

This shot might show the S&W logo a little better Mike. One of these days I need to get a camera that does close ups better. That logo looks much sharper and better than that in real life. Did my pics tell you what you wanted to know about that S&W logo'd sideplate Mike?

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[Mike Irwin]

It appears that someone cross hatched the rear of that side plate.

I don't know why the hell they would do that.

And, judging by what I THINK I can see (sorry, but your close in photos are pretty atrocious) it looks like that sideplate is a post-WW II commercial, as it appears to have the slot necessary for the Springfield "L" hammer block.

That means that if you install it on your gun, it will have NO hammer block safety at all and, because of that, if you carry it, you should do so with an empty chamber under the hammer.

The problem with the old-style "wing" hammer block was that grease or corrosion could effectively negate the hammer block.

This happened during World War II, and a sailor standing guard on a ship dropped a handgun so disabled. It landed on the hammer, sheared it (or the rebound stud) off, and fired, killing the sailor.

Springfield Armory quickly designed the new, positive "L" hammer block, which is still in use today.

 

[Bill Akins]

Hi Mike. As you know, my camera does not have a close up setting. I had sanded and blued the exterior of that spare S&W logo sideplate. But before I did that, I had earlier in this thread posted the pic from the gunbroker ad for it showing the S&W logo and the sideplate rusty and in the white. You can see the S&W logo clearly in that pic. Here's that pic again.....

Whether the sideplate was supposed to be crosshatched like that on its backside I have no idea. Looks like a factory job to me. Maybe to reduce weight?

I'm not sure what you are talking about how that right hand sideplate would affect my hammer block. When I took my S&W 1917 apart, my right hand sideplate has nothing at all to do with my hammer block. In fact I worked the action and watched my hammer block work with my sideplate off my revolver. My hammer block is a long piece that follows a long slot on the left side of the revolver that not only blocks the hammer but also is the stud the button for the cylinder release screws on to. It is a long piece that looks like this in this e bay photo and is called a "WWI S&W Smith & Wesson 1917 .45 Revolver Bolt Assembly P-1064"

and that part fits into the long slot on the left inside of my frame in this below pic where it is removed but you can see the long slot on the inside left frame where it goes in my below pic. You can also see in same below pic that my sideplate lying by the revolver is the same design (except for the crosshatching) as the one with the logo on it.

Since that part is on the left inside of my frame and will work to block the hammer even with the right sideplate off the revolver, I don't understand what you are trying to tell me Mike.


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