Woman Kills Shower Attacker

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Happy to hear the woman was able to properly defend her self,from what could have enede up costing her own life.I dont feel sorry for the thug.
Thank you,
Henry
 
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He was an expert on shooting people.[\Quote]

Which, at best, makes him an expert on his own reaction to shooting people. It does not, by itself, qualify him to speak on how other people react.
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What it does do is show that more than one type of reaction is possible. If we believe the man who tells us he suffers emotional trauma from his actions on the street or battlefield are we not obligated to believe the man who tells us he feels only exhilaration or euphoria?

The fact that another reaction is evidently possible makes an emotional response to a righteous shooting a potential training issue rather than an innate human response.

Who exactly would be qualified to comment on such matters if Mr. Cooper is not?
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lmao you guys are still debating psychology
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What else is psychology good for, if not debate.:) Except at the poker table of course.

Vanya wrote:
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Many people believe that killing another human being in a justified situation is a cause for celebration. I'll buy the first round.
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I won't be drinking with you. If I'm ever in that situation, and I hope I never will be, I expect I'll be happy to be alive, but I will never "celebrate" the killing of a fellow human.
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That's an excellent point. My drink comment was flippant and unsuited to the gravity of the topic. I cheerfully withdraw the comment, although not the underlying sentiment that defeating any enemy can be cause for celebration, but perhaps not toasting. I did unapologetically celebrate the recent killing of OBL.
 
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Hope this thread stays on topic as im sure there is some more to this story we havnt heard yet..as if the women attended a training school on self defence or home defence..and hopefully we will here all about it if she did..but I am glad that the woman lived and wasn't raped and murdered ...( I personally think that is 3/4 the silver lining )...the other 1/4 is that the attacker died...someone here said that no good comes from someone being killed...I humbly disagree...im glad he died and know that it was a 22 it gave him plenty of time weez and gurgle before he died...( my brother was hit by a 22 bullet in the heart and I watched him pass out and nearly die as I did cpr on him )...that is a thing I will wish only on a true scum bag......sorry for the rant but people like that just make me sick
 
What it does do is show that more than one type of reaction is possible. If we believe the man who tells us he suffers emotional trauma from his actions on the street or battlefield are we not obligated to believe the man who tells us he feels only exhilaration or euphoria?
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You asked why she should feel guilt. You were given a reason why a normal person might. Your question was answered. Nobody said it was the only possible reaction. That's your straw man.

The fact that another reaction is evidently possible makes an emotional response to a righteous shooting a potential training issue rather than an innate human response.
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You're overassuming again. Some people react differently than others because, now get this, different people are different. Some people get freckles when exposed to UV light. Some don't. Has nothing to do with "training." Has everything to do with how different people respond to the same stimuli. (Physical in one case, emotional in the other.)

Who exactly would be qualified to comment on such matters if Mr. Cooper is not?
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How about somebody who actually studies human stress reactions and the reactions of people to events like having to shoot someone in defense of self and others.

Experts are not necessarily knowledgeable outside their own fields. Jeff Cooper was quite knowledgeable in his field, but that field was not psychology and the study of things like PTSD.

Here's an example. Paul Ragonese, long term police officer on the NYPD. Years of experience and training,multiple awards for lifesaving and heroism, yet when he had to kill someone in self defense his response was far from "hoist a cold one." And in his retelling he relates coming to understand other officers who had killed in the line of duty whose reactions mostly seemed to mirror his. It was the most common, the normal, reaction. (Sorry, no links. I have his book "Soul of a Cop" in my library.)
 
It's a shame she had to do it,,,
But I am glad she was prepared,,,
And that she had the guts to defend herself.

Hopefully she will be able to get past any guilt,,,
She did the proper thing under the circumstance she faced.
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This is the comment that prompted me to weigh in. It assumes that she may feel guilt. I asked why she should feel guilt and stated that she should be exhilarated that she won. Admittedly my own wish.

Dburkhead wrote:
You asked why she should feel guilt. You were given a reason why a normal person might. Your question was answered. Nobody said it was the only possible reaction. That's your straw man.
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I have emphasized part of your comment in bold. This is exactly what I have a problem with. In a previous thread on TFL linked here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=449350&highlight=sociopath
similar comments were made that no normal person could feel anything other than remorse after taking a life no matter how justified. Actual people who have taken lives responded that this was just not so. There was opinion both ways. But to say that it is "normal" for a person to feel so is to either call those who say otherwise liars or to accuse them of a deficiency. It is possible to feel either way. Training can have an impact in overcoming the societal taboo.

How about somebody who actually studies human stress reactions and the reactions of people to events like having to shoot someone in defense of self and others.

Experts are not necessarily knowledgeable outside their own fields. Jeff Cooper was quite knowledgeable in his field, but that field was not psychology and the study of things like PTSD.

Here's an example. Paul Ragonese, long term police officer on the NYPD. Years of experience and training,multiple awards for lifesaving and heroism, yet when he had to kill someone in self defense his response was far from "hoist a cold one." And in his retelling he relates coming to understand other officers who had killed in the line of duty whose reactions mostly seemed to mirror his. It was the most common, the normal, reaction. (Sorry, no links. I have his book "Soul of a Cop" in my library.)
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I do not dispute your citation. I freely acknowledge that both reactions are possible. I don't see what you are disputing here. Mr Cooper and Mr Ragonese having differing opinions makes my point, not yours.
 
I agree that it is different for each person..several of my close friends have killed people...only one will not talk about it..the other three discuss it as though it was the local news...go figure
 
We are conditioned from a young age not to kill. A reaction can therefore be regarded as a normal event- even when you have an excellent excuse.
 
I think Jeff cooper would have jumped out of the shower, butt naked, then chuck norris tornado kicked the attacker.

then, shot him with the colt peacemaker that he showers with.

finally, taken ambien, with abylify, to get a restful night's sleep, and awaken fresh in the morning.
 
We are conditioned from a young age not to kill. A reaction can therefore be regarded as a normal event- even when you have an excellent excuse.
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We're also conditioned to avoid danger. And yet we have Cops, firefighters, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines. The societal conditioning is just another form of training, albeit a powerful one. I'm arguing that it can be overcome. And many people have done so.
 
Without meaning to be a jerk about it, I thought I should point out that for all the people who today are saying they would never celebrate the taking of a human life, there were a whole lot of TFLers doing exactly that in the forum the other day, when the SEALS bagged Osama Bin Laden. I believe some of those people are saying they'd never celebrate such in this thread...

I hope the lady isn't too mentally scarred. She won this round, yes, but she was assaulted in her home. My lady and I never felt the same in a previous house, after it was merely burglarized. The experience soured our take on that neighborhood.

This was light-years worse. I can imagine that lady wanting to move, or at the very least have the home sterilized, an alarm system and new locks added, etc.

And there is the strong possibility that she will feel remorse. It's easy to say we wouldn't (and I know some people for whom that generally seems to be true), but even skells may have elderly parents, or small kids, who will be heart-broken over this kind of demise. It's hard to celebrate if one imagines the dead BG's child at home, crying.
 
She is a tough broad, no doubt about that. She did better then most of us would have done in that situation. The .22 did ok, but I gotta go with my 38.

Celebrating survival is normal, celebrating the death of an intractable foe like Bin laden is normal, but a total lack of remorse for killing someone, even like this, is not normal. I don't need any, so called experts, to tell me that.
 
The most stress I've ever had in my life was from NOT killing a criminal that I should have.
Spent more time and anger being totally frustrated at myself and the situtations that
occured AFTER the scumbag was released on bail (he kidnapped & raped a 14-yr old girl) and I still feel crabby
when I think about it, even though he was killed in a prison fight years ago while serving the Kidnapping/Rape sentence.
(Justice finally got served)

When you DON'T extinguish a scumbag when you should, there's no telling what they'll do next to hurt someone else.

I will NEVER "hold until police arrive" a bad guy again...they're only going to find a corpse to stick in a body bag.
And I will definitely sleep well at night, knowing for certain that there will be one less scumbag
terrorizing the rest of the world.
 
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Big Shrek, should such a situation ever arise, you'd best hope the DA doesn't search your posts and find that last one.

Some thoughts are best kept in your head, and not put into permanently viewable form.
 
It's a shame she had to do it,,,
But I am glad she was prepared,,,
And that she had the guts to defend herself.

Hopefully she will be able to get past any guilt,,,
She did the proper thing under the circumstance she faced.
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This is the comment that prompted me to weigh in. It assumes that she may feel guilt. I asked why she should feel guilt and stated that she should be exhilarated that she won. Admittedly my own wish.
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Yes. You asked why. Then you were told why. The original expression "Hopefully she will be able to get past any guilt" as worded, expressed the possibility of guilt ("any guilt" as opposed to "her guilt" or "the guilt" which would have implied more certainty that she _would_ feel guilt).

Also being exhilarated that she won and feeling guilty over taking a human life are not incompatible emotions. People are complex and it's quite possible for a person to feel both at the same time (and to compound the feelings of guilt precisely because they feel good about having won).

Humans are remarkably complex creatures and simplistic either-or answers are usually wrong.
 
Florida DA's tend to be on the conservative side, but y'all were right, a little editing was in order ;)

Last time a NW Fla DA decided to get froggy with a criminal killed by a victim during the commission of a crime,
his whole office got cleaned out before the next election (which he also lost)...it was the 7th time that shopkeeper had shot a bad guy,
the DA thought it was excessive, and prosecuted...the jury came back after 15 minutes deliberation, Not Guilty.
Then the County Commission started cutting his staff back, transferring & outright firing everyone who had
anything to do with forwarding that case...as the public went Tar & Feather on 'em.

Now Florida has some of the most forgiving "Castle Laws" in the USA...helped in part by that case.
They have since expanded the meaning of the law to include your personal vehicle, your place of business, and public places.

The Florida "Castle Doctrine" law basically does three things:

One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others. [This is an American right repeatedly recognized in Supreme Court gun cases.]

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them.

In short, it gives rights back to law-abiding people and forces judges and prosecutors who are prone to coddling criminals to instead focus on protecting victims.
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Honestly, EVERY state should adopt Florida's Castle Law...crime would drop like a rock!
Its definitely worked here!!
 
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I know that the mere thought of trying to maintain some sort of ability to respond to a threat while in the shower is the source of great mirth for many folks, even on this forum, but the fact remains that we are rarely so vulnerable while awake as we are while in the shower.

So much so that at least one serial killer made use of the fact. He would follow women home from the health club, wait until he heard the water come on and then break into the house, arm himself with a knife from the kitchen and then begin the attack.

I'm glad this woman was able to prevail over her attacker.
 
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