Wolves are causing big problems in Idaho.

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Acceptable losses due to predation on unfenced livestock must be understood but once a farmer/rancher OWNS AND FENCES HIS LAND Than any losses due to predation are unacceptable!

Brent hate to disagree with you on this one but, regardless if the the animals are fenced or free ranging any predator eating livestock is fair game IMO. Most States out West operate under what is known as "Open Range" this means livestock must be fenced out and not in. Fences do not stop predators, all it does is let them catch the livestock easier. Plus if they might cause more damage to animals in the herd when they blow out through the fence or get caught up in it.

We had a ewe caught in a wire netting fence that got hung up trying to get away from coyotes. When we found her all that was left was the hind leg in the fence. We had a ewe that died as well that died giving birth, we didn't get her out of the pen that night and were going to wait till morning all that was left was the hide and the head, again coyotes got her. Again the fence and the dogs in the yard were not a deterrent for determined coyotes.

Wolves will kill more than they can eat, don't know if it is for the thrill of the kill or not. I do know however that they can always come back at a later date to finish their meal. The don't seem to have a problem eating rotting meat, like most other predators. I don't have wolves where I live but we do get the occasional mountain lion or coyote killing calves, pigs and sheep. I do however think that it isn't a far stretch to say they have some of the same habits as these other predators.

This is a pretty good site for anyone who wants to look.
"http://www.pinedaleonline.com/wolf/index.htm"

With most of the US population now living in urban areas they are becoming more out of touch about what a Rancher and Farmer goes through to get food on the consumers table. As this happens it will become more and more difficult to keep our rights to protect our property from predators that these urbanites deem cute and cuddly and that we are the invasive species. Unfortunately they don't seem to understand that the more land we give back and take out of production the more we will become Dependant on foreign countries for our food. We have already outsourced most jobs, I guess they figure we can outsource our food production as well.
 
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Yes... taylorce, What I meant by it is the rancher with free range livestock on lease type parcels is not quite as able to figure the same success rate as the guy with multiple fenced parcels and livestock dogs and/or employees able to run the fence lines and pastures on routine intervals in an attempt to eliminate any possible predation.
I think we are pretty much on the same page and I bet we both know the 3 S's intimately in regard of predatory or destructive animals!;)
Brent
 
Zero Wolves

I might be reading some of the posts wrong, but some seem like that they would like to see the wolf go the way of the dodo bird. As I said before, thank God our cave dwelling ancestors did have the same attitude towards wild canines.
 
Funny how shooting some wolves means all wolves. No one has ever been able to kill all wolves in the entire history of our planet. However all our beaver are gone on Weitas Creek. Where have all the beaver gone? Gone to the wolves the old game warden said.

Mr. Tire, I found the article I refured to in above post.

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Abandons Its Wolf Delisting Rule

On September 22, 2008, the United States Department of Justice filed a motion for a voluntary remand of the final rule by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) to designate Northern Rocky Mountain gray wolves as a distinct population segment and remove them from the federal list of endangered and threatened wildlife. If U.S. District Judge Donald Molloy in Missoula grants this request, the agency would reconsider and revise the rule in response to issues raised in the lawsuit brought by Bozeman-based Earthjustice on behalf of twelve conservation organizations including Friends of the Clearwater. Concerned that even greater numbers of wolves would be killed without Endangered Species Act (ESA) protections, these plaintiffs secured a preliminary injunction from Judge Molloy on July 18, 2008 that influenced the present agency position reversal, temporarily reinstated wolf ESA status, and halted transfer of wolf management from the USFWS to state wildlife departments while the case proceeded. In his opinion and order, Molloy noted that the plaintiffs were likely to prevail on the merits of their claims that: 1) the wolves had not met recovery criteria due to a lack of genetic exchange between their greater Yellowstone and other populations in northwest Montana and central Idaho; 2) Wyoming’s 2007 management framework was an inadequate regulatory mechanism; and 3) fall 2008 public wolf hunting seasons planned by Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming posed immediate potential harm for wolves. When the USFWS delisted gray wolves in the Northern Rockies on March 28, they asserted that wolf populations and distribution had exceeded reintroduction goals since 2002.

Even though gray wolves in the region are relisted as endangered, the insidious provisions of the ESA 10(j) clause, revised before delisting and again in effect, could greatly increase wolf susceptibility to extinction. As sanctioned by Secretary of the Interior and ex-Idaho Governor Dirk Kempthorne and the USFWS, this recent ESA re-interpretation permits wildlife officials of the three states to kill more gray wolves in certain circumstances because they are only protected as “experimental, non-essential populations” under the 10(j) rule. An earlier version of this exclusion from the usual, rigorous safeguards of the law eased wolf reintroductions in 1995 and 1996 and the subsequent conflicts that occurred between expanding wolf numbers and livestock interests. Under pressure from Idaho, Wyoming, a minority of hunters, and the Bush administration to further relax ESA restrictions and thus minimize wolf numbers, the USFWS on January 28, 2008 extended killing of gray wolves beyond those caught killing livestock to include state-agent hunting, even by aerial gunning, of wolves supposedly reducing the elk, deer, and other ungulate herds whose populations are above state objectives. Although elk numbers are at an all-time high throughout the region and wildlife studies have never found wolves to be the primary cause of big-game declines, each state can nonetheless kill all but 200 of the approximately 1,455 wolves that inhabit the Northern Rockies, even without public wolf hunts. Regional wolf populations are currently declining: humans have killed over 500 wolves since 66 of them were initially released and another 100 this year under the new 10(j) rule.

As demonstrated by an overwhelming majority of the comments submitted on the draft 10(j) rule by citizens and scientists, public support for wolf protection and recovery recognizes that wolves restore overall balance to ecosystems. By killing weak and sick animals and allowing recovery of riparian vegetation over-browsed by ungulates, wolves improve the strength and vitality of big-game herds and their habitat. To bolster the viability of wolf populations in the Northern Rockies, six conservation organizations and Friends of the Clearwater filed a lawsuit in January challenging the Environmental Assessment and Finding of No Significant Impact for revision of the 10(j) regulations. On July 23, only days after halting the reclassification and delisting rule, Judge Molloy denied the federal government’s motion to dismiss this case. His order also granted the government’s request for a 60-day stay of the case until September 22, to give the involved parties time to determine how to proceed.
 
Notice our elk numbers are at an " all time high" :eek:
and wolves are an expermintal, non essential population. :)

I am not sure what a "minority of hunters" means?

People should quit hunting bear with dogs in Idaho
Wolves kill six hunting dogs in attack near Kamiah
http://right-mind.us/blogs/blog_0/archive/2008/07/24/61655.aspx


The goal was 300 or more and we have 1,400 plus. (900 3 or 4 years ago- then 1, 200, now 1,400 plus. The Yellowstone wolf- Montana, Wyoming and Idaho are all related, because they were all shipped in from Canada; around 1995 or so in Idaho.

But we have or had? an Idaho wolf- he is smaller and different from the Canada wolf.

How many wolves are the goal? Does the goal constantly change?
How many wolves are too many? What about the pre- canadian Idaho wolf?
What will happen to him?

Warning this link may haunt you. It shows a moose in deep snow that can not get away from this wolf pack being eaten alive. It haunts me. 4 pictures ...

http://right-mind.us/blogs/blog_0/archive/2007/02/14/49953.aspx
 
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Art told us to wrap it up so here is my last post in the wolf debate

We dont need a Canadian wolf when we already had an Idaho wolf.

My point was we should take care of our endangered Idaho wolf.
All of Idaho got along with him.

I'm not sure how that can be done now-
but what we did is a darn shame.

...if it was about the wolf- the Idaho wolf would be going strong.

GR, there was no worry about the native wolf here. They lived way out and avoided humans. They didn't run in large packs and if you were lucky enough to see one it was a thrill. Up in the Kelly Creek district above the North Fork of the Clearwater River is where you might find one...for a second. These wolves lived as reclusive as possible. Who knows who decided it was necessary to reintroduce the Canadian Grey substitute, I guarantee it wasn't an Idaho, Montana or Wyoming native. People who like to "think" about how wonderful and pristine it would be to reintroduce predators to someone elses backyard is what happened. Most of those people will never even come to our state!
Like I already said in a previous post, the Canadian Grey is aggressive and doesn't hesitate to eliminate any canine not of it's individual pack, including the smaller more isolated native wolf. You can guess what has happened to our native wolves, killed by the new Canadian wolf! Kinda like shooting yourself in the foot, if you are worried about an animal population going extinct.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=849&page=3
 
I think I and the others seeking a population control measure of various degrees have made all the points a logical person would need... Of course there will always be some illogical folks that cannot see the needs...
Brent
 
What's Up?

Is there some sort of personal vendetta against wolves here? If they are harming someone's cattle or pets or are attacking people then yes, take them out. If they are causing no harm, leave'em be. It doesn't take writing a dissertation to make this point. Unless, these is some sort virulent feelings towards these creatures.
 
The question to your answer Roy is yes. There is and for some there always will be. No one here has argued protection or not killing problem critters but all we have asked for is some fact and we get internet rumor. 2-3000 wolves is not many.

Let's look at the numbers of wolves as compared to Mt. Lions. Estimates put 5000 lions in California and 6000 in Colorado. Those numbers are more than likely low but I stopped looking after finding a couple numbers. They do dwarf the numbers of wolves in the lower 48 and that's only 2 states. We know they are there, they are bigger than wolves, we read on a regular basis about the problems and that info is all over the Internet and easy to find. I'm betting that nationwide the numbers of Mt.Lions is 25 times that of the wolf. Lions sound like a heck of a lot bigger problem the wolves. The wolf problem is small fry.

Some people cry wolf and others get a tingly and scared as far away as Florida. :confused:
 
Mountain Lions are not nearly the problem as wolves. Cats are more solitary, they don't run in packs. They will only kill one animal at a time, not wound a few and then feed on the ones that go down first. Cats have fewer offspring than a pack of wolves. Mountain lions will not usually go after animals much larger than a deer; the same can't be said for wolves. Don't get me wrong lions can be a problem but they are not federally protected and can be dealt with.

Just as you believe the lion numbers are not correct many of us believe the same about wolf numbers. It is very hard to get a physical count on animals from the air when they are under a canopy of trees. Just like elk, deer, and moose counts I'm sure they all got a fudge factor worked in.

My question is they met the original numbers for sustainable breeding pairs, so why keep changing the rules every time they are about to be delisted? Taking the ability to control the population of wolves away from the States that have them is just going to anger the people who live within them. People will be more accepting of the wolf as soon as the States can have control and not the Feds.
 
In Idaho the "Gov" Butch Otter says he wants the first available wolf tag. That is fine with me as long as there are more to follow- And even when the wolf was an "endangered species" the rule was if you could prove there was mixed tracks with your cattle, livestock or pets you had the right to remove the wolf from this earth. The first I heard of wolves in my backyard was in Fairfield, Idaho about 6 or 7 years ago. There was a pack that had moved in to the Soldier Mtn area. The only thing I remember is Fish & Game was offering a reward for information for who shot 2 wolves. Fairfield is a small town and I think they got scared by all the coverage and stopped shooting the wolves. The wolves stayed in that area and have hurt the deer and elk heards. Butch Otter has a cabin by Anderson Ranch (very close to Fairfield) so he has dealt with this from the beginning.

The thing is when you first hear about the wolves it is no big deal. When you see them in action you think, how in hell can you control that.
 
roy reali, I think you're misreading the general consensus. Few are totally against having some wolves around. The repulsion is of the governmental system for how the whole deal is handled; it's seen as being unfair to people on the ground in wolf territory.

When your decisions and actions make people think they've been unfairly treated, you're gonna get really strong opposition and strong emotions. When you hit people in their billfolds, the normal reaction is to hit back.
 
mtnm posted,
Warning this link may haunt you. It shows a moose in deep snow that can not get away from this wolf pack being eaten alive. It haunts me. 4 pictures ...

I have read with great interest all of your posts on this thread. However this one statement spoils all the rest.
The predator is a fierce and powerful animal and has been doing what they do since the dawn of Creation.
What I see when I looked at those pictures is, This is the same way it was done for thousands of years. Nothing has changed.
Some could debate the health of the animal in the pictures, but to me that is all that could be debated. Great pictures of The Natural World.
Nature is cruel compared to what we desire to be our standard. However Man can be just as fierce and savage.

Please control your emotions! Leave uncontrolled emotions for the bunny huggers.
 
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Warning this link may haunt you. It shows a moose in deep snow that can not get away from this wolf pack being eaten alive. It haunts me. 4 pictures ...

Link finally worked for me and I can tell you that those pictures were not taken in either MT or ID. IIRC and I'll do a little more research to prove it those pictures were taken in Canada, in fact they were taken on an island if memory serves. That was a known pack that was being studied, and all the pictures were taken from a survey aircraft.

The Bull Moose in the picture other than being tired and worn out from the wolves harassing it appears to very healthy. I’ve been known to post things of questionable fact, but usually I put some disclaimer with it. I’m not saying that mtnm posted anything that she thought was fact. From reading the post below the pictures, that these pictures were not very well researched and the spin was put on them to further someones agenda.

http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/photo_essay/photo_essay/moosekill.html
Foud the link to the real story.
 
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Thank you for the correction. I always like to know when I am out of balance.

I am the female wife of the Game Warden, BTW. :)
 
OH CRAP!!!! Gotta watch what i say!:eek: seriously G.W.'s Are usually the ones I like to pick brain on!
I also think that her warning of viciousness of the link and wolves eating a still living animal were a little sarcastic warning to the few who seem to think we all want total eradication of the wolf when in fact most of us want states to be allowed to manage their own resources and serve their residents!
IBTL.... Last one for this page...
Brent
 
...oh darn, but he's been retired for 10 years... oops I blew it again. :p

The predator is a fierce and powerful animal and has been doing what they do since the dawn of Creation.
What I see when I looked at those pictures is, This is the same way it was done for thousands of years.

I have gotten that reaction before. It always mystifies me, BTW. My picture comment probablly out of place on a board like this one, but I mostly post on Horse dicussion boards- with kids- LOL. :p

Yeah- Brent taught me how to kill a wildhog with a knife yesterday.
You dont learn that on Horse boards. LOL.

Captian Charlie invited us over from the John Lyons board... so I came and lurked. I had to post in this thread though, because I have so much to say. :D

You guys are great you know.

i have read with great interest all of your posts on this thread. However this one statement spoils all the rest.

Thank you I will remember that. :) My forum friends teach me how to write a better arguement each time. I thought about it and perhaps that disclaimer is just like carrying in church? Mostly you dont need it and you hope you never will. You may think you are talking to a guy who is really a girl on the net - or vice versa- and one never knows who will read your posts.

My husband spent his entire career trying to protect the Idaho grizzly. He failed. I want to protect the Idaho wolf. It is a loosing battle too.

May you guys alway have the desire of your heart.
You are a great bunch of people. ;)
 
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