Wolves are causing big problems in Idaho.
- Thread starter Big Bill
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PBP, If dead wolf carcasses shot while stalking kids is anecdotal to you than you continue your belief all you want... While a totally different creature, the coyote is close enuff and they are now roaming inner city streets and hunting in subdivisions.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/324731_coyote23.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,917686,00.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17950832/
Given enuff time being protected by the nay sayers just like yourself who rather go thru life with blinders on failing to see the forest for the trees these will be wolves!
Pardon my harsh reply but it is folks like you who will harm the wolf far more than help it... Let us hunters and farmers deal with population control before your tax dollars are spent to poison them or hunt them from helicopters...
Brent
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/324731_coyote23.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,917686,00.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17950832/
Given enuff time being protected by the nay sayers just like yourself who rather go thru life with blinders on failing to see the forest for the trees these will be wolves!
Pardon my harsh reply but it is folks like you who will harm the wolf far more than help it... Let us hunters and farmers deal with population control before your tax dollars are spent to poison them or hunt them from helicopters...
Brent
Huntergirl
New member
PBP, you are so naive and wrong about the wolf issue. Come to Wyoming and experience it for yourself. Right now, you are talking out of your league.
L_Killkenny
New member
Come on now Hogdogs, we're talking wolves and you throw out evidence that includes coyotes?....good thinkin
There's acceptable losses that everybody has to deal with when contending with nature and then there's unacceptable losses. I'll agree that state F&G agencies are far better at making decisions about control than anybody in DC and I've stated that fact. But from everything I've seen/heard the anti-wolf crowd is not willing to accept "acceptable" losses. Control may be needed and I'd be glad to help
but we shouldn't kill all, or even most, off.
For the hunters that claim that the wolves are killing of the herds..... why was there so much game 200 years ago? Heck of a lot more wolves and bears then, and lots and lots of deer and elk too. I don't believe that a couple thousand wolves in 3 states will decimate whole populations of deer and elk when 10's of thousands, possible 100's of thousands, of wolves couldn't do it 200 years ago. With the limited numbers of wolves today, wolves and hunters should have more than enough game to go around.
There's acceptable losses that everybody has to deal with when contending with nature and then there's unacceptable losses. I'll agree that state F&G agencies are far better at making decisions about control than anybody in DC and I've stated that fact. But from everything I've seen/heard the anti-wolf crowd is not willing to accept "acceptable" losses. Control may be needed and I'd be glad to help
but we shouldn't kill all, or even most, off.For the hunters that claim that the wolves are killing of the herds..... why was there so much game 200 years ago? Heck of a lot more wolves and bears then, and lots and lots of deer and elk too. I don't believe that a couple thousand wolves in 3 states will decimate whole populations of deer and elk when 10's of thousands, possible 100's of thousands, of wolves couldn't do it 200 years ago. With the limited numbers of wolves today, wolves and hunters should have more than enough game to go around.
Because just 30 years ago the yote population was low enuff that encroachment into populated areas was rare enuff that folks in washington state thought control was not needed...
Acceptable losses due to predation on unfenced livestock must be understood but once a farmer/rancher OWNS AND FENCES HIS LAND Than any losses due to predation are unacceptable!
I am but a dumb redneck but could there be any correlation to hardly no hunters per square mile? Or any correlation to much more wilderness for all to roam? I think my uneducated self might just be on to something here... Anyone agree with my thoughts on the "WHY" part?
Brent
L_Killkenny
New member
BS. Yes or no......should a farmer be able to kill every crop eating critter on land he owns?
In the states included in this debate, much of the land remains as it was 100's of years ago. Wildlife has adapted and and our presence would have little effect on them if you remove hunting from the equation. But let's put hunting into the equation......The states in the debate had 1000's of Indians within the borders. These Indians only source for meat was wild game. They didn't have grocery stores and factory farms. Every bit of meat they ate through out the year was wild game. I'm betting these thousands of Indians killed as much wild game in a year as the present day hunters in these states do during the short and controlled hunting seasons. Top that off, our right to hunt does not supercede the right of a wolf to eat. It may have 150 years ago, not today.
ABSOLUTELY!!! Can he? NO! Due to game laws he is stuck there but deer are not also capable eating his dogs as well as crops...
I feel a land owner should have absolute dominion over his land so long as he is NOT selling hunts.
I feel game season and bag limits should be restricted to public lands... Also I feel no license should be required to hunt one's own land just like a 3 year old can legally drive my truck on my yard!
That is absolute hogwash! There is a very small amount of land in any state that is as it was hundreds of years ago! That is the BS!!! Most of the land is urban, sub-urban or agriculture at this time with a tiny amount set aside as wilderness...
Darn it man! I don't like debating a person that gives me all my ammo!
You lost you debate with that statement... 1,000's of indians with stick and string versus millions of white, modern hunters with superior weapons???
I am betting you lost that bet and I also assure you the indians ate far less wild meat than you realize. One village/tribe ate one deer at a time as refrigeration had yet to be invented
... When was the last time you seen a whiteman feed the whole block of people his one deer?Wolves, nor any animal has "RIGHTS"! They, unlike liberals, know there are no guarantees in life! We have dominion as stewards over the earth and everything on it. It is up to us to handle it with a careful conservancy but to stick yer fingers in your ears and sing LA LA LA LA LA with closed eyes is not responsible stewardship.
Brent
Okay L_KILLKENNY and PBP, A question... Lets say yall are both walking your dogs (pretend here if you don't have a dog or replace with cat or other pet animal) down the street and are armed with your choice of firearm... You find yourselves surronded by wolves but the wolves seem content to target your pets... You are just going to let the lease go and feed the pets to the wolves? Or shoot them before your pet is destined to the realm of wolf crap?
Brent
Brent
PBP-----True numbers
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/wildlife/manage_issues/ung/elkupdate.cfm
If you look at how at the numbers under wolf denisty "very high" becomes unacceptable. I have lived in Idaho all my life. This is a new game we are playing and it is just a little shocking. It is very new!
This story below is about a story with 8 wolves that come in and kill a cougar that was eating on an elk kill. The predators are killing the predators. It is not completely widespread in the state but it is in my backyard. And it is just not that fun.
www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005125077&var_Year=2009&var_Month=03&var_Day=04
When you live here it is like a slow trainwreck. I have been planning my new rifle for sometime and having a great time waiting for the slaughter.
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/wildlife/manage_issues/ung/elkupdate.cfm
If you look at how at the numbers under wolf denisty "very high" becomes unacceptable. I have lived in Idaho all my life. This is a new game we are playing and it is just a little shocking. It is very new!
This story below is about a story with 8 wolves that come in and kill a cougar that was eating on an elk kill. The predators are killing the predators. It is not completely widespread in the state but it is in my backyard. And it is just not that fun.
www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005125077&var_Year=2009&var_Month=03&var_Day=04
When you live here it is like a slow trainwreck. I have been planning my new rifle for sometime and having a great time waiting for the slaughter.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
As near as i can tell from comments from both sides of the argument, the overall wildlife/domestic stock situation pretty well stabilized by the 1940s insofar as predation was concerned. That means that approximately a half-century or so of stability has existed. IOW, normal ups and downs due to weather and food supply and people doing what people do.
The idea of, "Let's bring back the wolf so it will be like the old days," is purely romantic. Straight out of Felix Salter and Walt Disney. The problem for many of the local-resident types is the belief that feeding one's family and paying one's taxes take priority over the romanticism of strangers who have no physical or monetary involvement in the area. The authoritarianism of, "You oughta do like I say, in order to suit my picture of how things oughta be," is resented.
I fail to see how a city dweller has any sort of right whatsoever to determine what an "acceptable" loss is to a rancher. Or what the "acceptable" loss of income is to a hunting guide.
Basically, it's nothing but arrogance and a totally undeserved sense of self-importance.
The idea of, "Let's bring back the wolf so it will be like the old days," is purely romantic. Straight out of Felix Salter and Walt Disney. The problem for many of the local-resident types is the belief that feeding one's family and paying one's taxes take priority over the romanticism of strangers who have no physical or monetary involvement in the area. The authoritarianism of, "You oughta do like I say, in order to suit my picture of how things oughta be," is resented.
I fail to see how a city dweller has any sort of right whatsoever to determine what an "acceptable" loss is to a rancher. Or what the "acceptable" loss of income is to a hunting guide.
Basically, it's nothing but arrogance and a totally undeserved sense of self-importance.
BB great post. 
For a historical reference to the ammount of game along the old Lolo Trail in north central Idaho 200 years ago, please refur to the Journals of Lewis and Clark, 1805-1806.
1) Many Nez perce people died over this winter of starvation.
2) Because of a lack of game around Kamiah Idaho, in the spring of 1806 the Nez Perce people gave L and C a horse to eat. They also ate dog. NP would rather die than eat horse or dog.
3) Crossing the Lolo Trail was very difficult in 1805 the L and C expedition almost starved to death on this part of their journey to the sea. Not much game they recorded in the journals.
Perhaps Lewis and Clarks journals are not politically correct?
They shot a coyote on the edge of the Weippe Prairie, and the Bitterroot Mountains which today are full of wolves had none in that day.
For a historical reference to the ammount of game along the old Lolo Trail in north central Idaho 200 years ago, please refur to the Journals of Lewis and Clark, 1805-1806.
1) Many Nez perce people died over this winter of starvation.
2) Because of a lack of game around Kamiah Idaho, in the spring of 1806 the Nez Perce people gave L and C a horse to eat. They also ate dog. NP would rather die than eat horse or dog.
3) Crossing the Lolo Trail was very difficult in 1805 the L and C expedition almost starved to death on this part of their journey to the sea. Not much game they recorded in the journals.
Perhaps Lewis and Clarks journals are not politically correct?
They shot a coyote on the edge of the Weippe Prairie, and the Bitterroot Mountains which today are full of wolves had none in that day.
L_Killkenny
New member
Just like arguing with my kids here Brent...LOL. I'll take these 1 at a time:
#1) Wolf trying to eat my dog? I'd shoot the critter as fast as I could. And in all my post I have been consistent. I have no problems with killing a wolf. Just not all or most of em.
#2)Farmers should be able to kill every crop eating critter on their place? Good for you, you just managed to kill off 99% of the game animals in Iowa (and most other states).
#3) Maybe in Florida most of the land is urban or agricultural but have you seen Wyo, Mt and Id? Is much of the land being used? Yes. Is it urban? Heck no? Does it look much different than 200 years ago and heavily populated? Heck no.
#4) Millions of animals are currently killed every year with bows by woodsman not nearly as skilled as the Indians. Their little strings and sticks were highly effective and managed to kill it's fair share of white folk too.
#5) Whole villages killed/ate 1 deer at a time? LMAO. Prehistoric man had been running them off of cliffs for forever!! They didn't need a stinkin refrigerator, they dried their meat to preserve it. Whole tribes would join in buffalo hunts to kill them by the 100's at a time. What you been smokin...
#6) Maybe instead of saying animals have rights it would be better say that WE have certain obligations. Preserving wildlife for future generations and making as clean of kills as possible being 2 of them. You obviously don't agree with the first. I wonder if you agree with the second.
First off, city dweller I am not. 2nd, I'll tell you why we have the right to tell someone what they can and can't do with their property..... It's called the constitution. You may not believe in or obligations to this great land but legally we have the right to tell you that something is unacceptable. Art, answer my question that I asked about deer on a far a few post back...yes or no? 50-75 years ago deer were re-introduced into Iowa. Maybe that was a bad idea too.
#1) Wolf trying to eat my dog? I'd shoot the critter as fast as I could. And in all my post I have been consistent. I have no problems with killing a wolf. Just not all or most of em.
#2)Farmers should be able to kill every crop eating critter on their place? Good for you, you just managed to kill off 99% of the game animals in Iowa (and most other states).
#3) Maybe in Florida most of the land is urban or agricultural but have you seen Wyo, Mt and Id? Is much of the land being used? Yes. Is it urban? Heck no? Does it look much different than 200 years ago and heavily populated? Heck no.
#4) Millions of animals are currently killed every year with bows by woodsman not nearly as skilled as the Indians. Their little strings and sticks were highly effective and managed to kill it's fair share of white folk too.
#5) Whole villages killed/ate 1 deer at a time? LMAO. Prehistoric man had been running them off of cliffs for forever!! They didn't need a stinkin refrigerator, they dried their meat to preserve it. Whole tribes would join in buffalo hunts to kill them by the 100's at a time. What you been smokin...
#6) Maybe instead of saying animals have rights it would be better say that WE have certain obligations. Preserving wildlife for future generations and making as clean of kills as possible being 2 of them. You obviously don't agree with the first. I wonder if you agree with the second.
Glad you said it
.
First off, city dweller I am not. 2nd, I'll tell you why we have the right to tell someone what they can and can't do with their property..... It's called the constitution. You may not believe in or obligations to this great land but legally we have the right to tell you that something is unacceptable. Art, answer my question that I asked about deer on a far a few post back...yes or no? 50-75 years ago deer were re-introduced into Iowa. Maybe that was a bad idea too.
So will I!
So yer sorry azz pet that costs you money and never profits yer wallet isn't fair game but a ranchers income earning cattle are fair game? i never said every wolf should be killed either... Just those in ranches and overpopulation prevention the wilderness.
Well if there was so much wilderness than it wouldn't be 99%... NOW WOULD IT!!!
Small parts of florida are urban and sub-urban with the vast majority in crop land, wetland, and woods...
Many times I have seen those states and from what I seen in the many trips crosscountry with a nature loving trucker/father/farmer most was in crop land and ranchland with only the mountainous areas not utilized for those tasks and some of that was open range ranched.
Amen and these same whitemen have store bought items to take them far and above the lethality of the redman and his hickory bow... 40 yards is average max for the archer but 60 plus is still easy money for the bow and carbon arrow... And we have treestands and corn feeders too...
Having studied native american lifestyle, skill and equipment since getting to sit with Navajo indians on their tribal land night after night as a guest while the company my father worked for did road construction i know they would take a 40 yard shot if they were starving but could easily get within 5 yards due to their skill. These are also the folks who taught me how what when and why they killed and ate wild meat!
Prehistoric man had little skill and fewer weapons... hunting slow moving or stampede mentality animals... Far different than native americans of the last 12,000 years!
In florida drying meat is a fallacy! Humidity! Whole tribes joined in buffalo hunts but only a few were killed! How in the ever lovin' hell they gonna drag on ton animals back to the village? Give me a break! It was the white man who killed hundreds at a time to starve out the indians that were kickin their azz and to avoid train derailments caused by the aforementioned 1 ton beasts!
Preserving wildlife in sustainable populations in areas that they should live in is likely at the fore front of all these folks minds that you are arguing with or that are shaking their head at the spittle you dribble from yer lips...
As for number 2 You have no right to question my concern for a clean kill when you feel it is fine for a wolf to feed on a still living animal that is not part of it's original diet! But I am the most humane killer I know... Even when I stick I wild hog with a knife I try to make it as close to instant as possible and thus I have studied their biology with bloody hands HUNDREDS of times to perfect the kill!
UMMM Pardon me but the constitution no where says that the government will be able to control how a land owner lives on his property! In fact as to your comment WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKIN' It ain't the weed grown by our forefathers on their own land!
Now A dumb redneck just OBLITERATED every statement you numbered and I am pretty dang sure most here will agree that you need to go off and lick your proverbial wounds! You have just been schooled by this redneck and those that also joined in this!
Brent
"Maybe in Florida most of the land is urban or agricultural but have you seen Wyo, Mt and Id? Is much of the land being used? Yes. Is it urban? Heck no? Does it look much different than 200 years ago and heavily populated? Heck no."
I thought florida was a wild swampy place of hurricans, red necks, cracker horses who walk on water,hog dogs and flooded trails and wild cattle?
My Nez Perce friend told me how wild it was in Fish Creek before the highway brought people and change. I live in the center of the big wild which is wilder than any where but Alaska they say. Only it is less than 1/2 what it was in 1900.
No its not Washington D.C. today, it is wild by those standards, but tamed by what we once had. Will James wrote about how the west lost its wild in 1935. Bud Moore wrote about what we lost since he was a boy, Bud isin his 80's now. WE wrecked his wild place. We have been wrecking wild places for a long time. Jeff Cooper wrote a book called Another Country,for his wild places are gone. Yesterday can never be re- done. Once a wild place is lost, it is lost forever.
Does Idaho have more wild than Virginny today? Yes. Is Idaho the same as yesterday? No.
I thought florida was a wild swampy place of hurricans, red necks, cracker horses who walk on water,hog dogs and flooded trails and wild cattle?
My Nez Perce friend told me how wild it was in Fish Creek before the highway brought people and change. I live in the center of the big wild which is wilder than any where but Alaska they say. Only it is less than 1/2 what it was in 1900.
No its not Washington D.C. today, it is wild by those standards, but tamed by what we once had. Will James wrote about how the west lost its wild in 1935. Bud Moore wrote about what we lost since he was a boy, Bud isin his 80's now. WE wrecked his wild place. We have been wrecking wild places for a long time. Jeff Cooper wrote a book called Another Country,for his wild places are gone. Yesterday can never be re- done. Once a wild place is lost, it is lost forever.
Does Idaho have more wild than Virginny today? Yes. Is Idaho the same as yesterday? No.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Deer on farms? Deer are browsers, not grazers. Stray cows will eat more pre-harvest grain plants than all the deer in Iowa. And, of course, the laws allow for removal of crop-damaging deer, when such a problem does occur. So far, little or no such deal with the wolf. Raccoons will rampage through a corn field when the ears are young, but I never saw where deer had eaten any of ours. (Somewhere in my garage is my grandfather's old corn sheller, from when he put me to work with it in the 1940s.) Oats? Deer love oats. That's some of the best bait there is, when the plants are very small and winter has cut back on herbs and forbs. Once the plants get any size, though, they're not nearly as yummy.
Sure anybody has the right to go to offering an opinion--separate from giving orders--but somewhere in the Constitution there's a "bit" about taking property without recompense. Not supposed to do that, and imposing predation upon someone's cow herd is indeed a taking. If ya really wanna drag the Constitution into all this. But imposing predation is indeed restricting the free and legal use of one's property--and federal courts have held that it's not supposed to be done.
We've wandered a long way from $$$/wolves/Idaho. Finish out this page and call it done.
Sure anybody has the right to go to offering an opinion--separate from giving orders--but somewhere in the Constitution there's a "bit" about taking property without recompense. Not supposed to do that, and imposing predation upon someone's cow herd is indeed a taking. If ya really wanna drag the Constitution into all this. But imposing predation is indeed restricting the free and legal use of one's property--and federal courts have held that it's not supposed to be done.
We've wandered a long way from $$$/wolves/Idaho. Finish out this page and call it done.
Well, now that you mention it- I did think I had a right to protect my horse, my dog and other property...
Non- en dangered - "endangered species" (such as wolves) changes all that thou...
WE have 3,000 plus in the lower 48, 10,000 or so in Alaska, 50, or 60,000 in Canada. How many count do we need until the wolf is not endangered?
Canadian wolves were brought to Yellowstone. Then to Idaho. Idaho was going to have a wolf season last yer but a Fed. judge in Montana declared the Yellowstone wolves have to crossbreed with the Idaho wolves first.
What the heck?
Non- en dangered - "endangered species" (such as wolves) changes all that thou...
WE have 3,000 plus in the lower 48, 10,000 or so in Alaska, 50, or 60,000 in Canada. How many count do we need until the wolf is not endangered?
Canadian wolves were brought to Yellowstone. Then to Idaho. Idaho was going to have a wolf season last yer but a Fed. judge in Montana declared the Yellowstone wolves have to crossbreed with the Idaho wolves first.
What the heck?
They seperated Wyoming from Idaho and Montana and we were all set for a wolf hunt. My environmentalist friends kept me updated on the montana lawsuit.
Yeah darn that Wyoming they think wolves are predators. LOL>
Shoot on sight- except in Yellowstone. States should know better than to buck the wise Feds.
Yeah darn that Wyoming they think wolves are predators. LOL>
Shoot on sight- except in Yellowstone. States should know better than to buck the wise Feds.
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