Wolves are causing big problems in Idaho.
- Thread starter Big Bill
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I doubt if Wild Animals I have Known by ESThompson is on the i- net?
It is most likely oop but may be found in a library.
Because Gene was the Game Warden we got to talk to the Federal wolf biologist; back in 1995, when they thought about bringing them into our state. They told us they needed a breeding pair. “We have a breeding pair on Smith Ridge,” Gene told them. Then they wanted two breeding pair, to discover just two breeding pairs in one year (the study timetable) or else they would introduce the Canadian wolf to our state. I thought a grey wolf was a grey wolf; back then. I did not know they differed in size and behavior. We had Idaho native wolves, and had a pack (with breeding pair) on Smith Ridge.
They told us when we spotted them to call them. We did. They never returned our call. We had to prove to them and we had to locate our Idaho wolves. Idaho wolves were non- existent without evidence. Who knew of the Idaho wolf? Hunters and the game warden in the field of north central Idaho knew about the Idaho wolf. (The game warden in the field differs from the Fish and Gamer person behind a desk. This may seem simple, but no wolves can be found behind a desk or in an office.) Our wolves were not officially recognized by Idaho State Fish and Game. Gene said during his career, he saw game management move from the field to the office. This often frustrated him.
Neither are our local Idaho grizzly bears recognized by Idaho State Fish and Game. Only hunters and some Forest Service personnel and Game Wardens in the field know of their existence. Our Idaho grizzly is smaller than the Yellowstone bear. He is more timed. He is different. He is special. He is not recognized nor protected. Gene spent his entire career documenting the Idaho grizzly and trying to protect him. The Idaho State Fish and Game said prove it- give us a dead grizzly. Our last dead grizzly was said to be from northern Idaho- he drifted in, he did not live in our region, for we have no “official” grizzly bear, the Fish and Game office experts said. A grizzly bear track was spotted on the Boundary Peak road. “That’s the Hungary Creek grizzly, “ replied Norm Steadman, Forest Service employee and old hunter. He said it easy like everyone knows about our bears.
Ed at the auto parts house said the same thing, basically. “There was no excuse for that guy shooting our Idaho grizzly. Everyone knows we have grizzly in the North Fork of the Clearwater drainage.” Well- perhaps everyone local- our people that live to hunt and fish the big wild of north central Idaho. What is plain as day to us, is probably unknown to you. Being in the field makes a big difference; it makes all the difference.
Gene's grizzly bear report was published by the University of Idaho.
College of forestry , wildlife, and Range Sciences
A Prelimnary Survey to Determine the Status of Grizzly Bears in the Clearwater Nartional Forest of Idaho
Wayne E.Melquist Jan. 1985
It is most likely oop but may be found in a library.
Because Gene was the Game Warden we got to talk to the Federal wolf biologist; back in 1995, when they thought about bringing them into our state. They told us they needed a breeding pair. “We have a breeding pair on Smith Ridge,” Gene told them. Then they wanted two breeding pair, to discover just two breeding pairs in one year (the study timetable) or else they would introduce the Canadian wolf to our state. I thought a grey wolf was a grey wolf; back then. I did not know they differed in size and behavior. We had Idaho native wolves, and had a pack (with breeding pair) on Smith Ridge.
They told us when we spotted them to call them. We did. They never returned our call. We had to prove to them and we had to locate our Idaho wolves. Idaho wolves were non- existent without evidence. Who knew of the Idaho wolf? Hunters and the game warden in the field of north central Idaho knew about the Idaho wolf. (The game warden in the field differs from the Fish and Gamer person behind a desk. This may seem simple, but no wolves can be found behind a desk or in an office.) Our wolves were not officially recognized by Idaho State Fish and Game. Gene said during his career, he saw game management move from the field to the office. This often frustrated him.
Neither are our local Idaho grizzly bears recognized by Idaho State Fish and Game. Only hunters and some Forest Service personnel and Game Wardens in the field know of their existence. Our Idaho grizzly is smaller than the Yellowstone bear. He is more timed. He is different. He is special. He is not recognized nor protected. Gene spent his entire career documenting the Idaho grizzly and trying to protect him. The Idaho State Fish and Game said prove it- give us a dead grizzly. Our last dead grizzly was said to be from northern Idaho- he drifted in, he did not live in our region, for we have no “official” grizzly bear, the Fish and Game office experts said. A grizzly bear track was spotted on the Boundary Peak road. “That’s the Hungary Creek grizzly, “ replied Norm Steadman, Forest Service employee and old hunter. He said it easy like everyone knows about our bears.
Ed at the auto parts house said the same thing, basically. “There was no excuse for that guy shooting our Idaho grizzly. Everyone knows we have grizzly in the North Fork of the Clearwater drainage.” Well- perhaps everyone local- our people that live to hunt and fish the big wild of north central Idaho. What is plain as day to us, is probably unknown to you. Being in the field makes a big difference; it makes all the difference.
Gene's grizzly bear report was published by the University of Idaho.
College of forestry , wildlife, and Range Sciences
A Prelimnary Survey to Determine the Status of Grizzly Bears in the Clearwater Nartional Forest of Idaho
Wayne E.Melquist Jan. 1985
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" Can you please post a link about the wolves you mention? I would really appreciate it."
I saw on a Canadian forum they had a 100 pound wolf. ...
No clue where I found that- I graze the i net and wish I had saved that site. Sorry. They read a track and guessed at weight.
I can't do that myself, because I am a city people.
I can give you a link to my wolf thread on another D Board if you want that,
but I bet that's not what you are looking for?
I saw on a Canadian forum they had a 100 pound wolf. ...
No clue where I found that- I graze the i net and wish I had saved that site. Sorry. They read a track and guessed at weight.
I can't do that myself, because I am a city people.
I can give you a link to my wolf thread on another D Board if you want that,
but I bet that's not what you are looking for?
I don't think the general public knows what goes on in the wild. If I were to put you on a snowmobile and take a little ride north of Hailey all you see is the remains of dead elk (a pile of bones in the snow is easy to find). A group of ten can dismantle an elk in one day. This group of ten (that I have been told to stay away from?) has to kill everyday. All I hear is they kill the weak and sick elk. THE WHOLE HEARD IS NOT WEAK AND SICK. Idaho Fish and Game says our coyote is a 30 pounder and our new wolf is a 120 pounder. My german shedder (I have three) weighs 80 lbs. and eats twice a day. He is a big boy but if he weighed 120 lbs and I had ten of them I don't think I could afford to feed them. I don't think Idaho can afford to feed these wolves.
pilothunter
Moderator
VERY well put, Mr. Tire. On a wilderness hunt to Idaho in '05 we heard wolves howling every night, as they followed the elk herds. Our guide, who had been in those mountains for almost 20 yrs, said he'd found nearly 40 wolf kills the previous winter, himself. They have only continued to grow in numbers, unchecked. Personally, I doubt I'd book another hunt in Idaho any time soon, simply because of the wolf predetation I've read about as well as "heard".
People in this country have been misled by people like Mr. PlayboyP; and so, we are doomed to suffer the effects of re-wilding that overzealous biologists with an agenda foist on us here in Idaho.
Our family used to participate in a Family Reunion at the 4H camp just below Galena Summit, but will no longer do so because of the wolves in that area. It's just become too dangerous for all our small children.
I would think that the wolves in the area around Ketchum, Sun Valley and Hailey will take quite a toll on the tourism there also. It's a shame that we have to suffer here in OUR state because of a few dimwits in Washington.
Our family used to participate in a Family Reunion at the 4H camp just below Galena Summit, but will no longer do so because of the wolves in that area. It's just become too dangerous for all our small children.
I would think that the wolves in the area around Ketchum, Sun Valley and Hailey will take quite a toll on the tourism there also. It's a shame that we have to suffer here in OUR state because of a few dimwits in Washington.
It was the @#$%@ %$&$#@$$ federal judge in Calaforny that caused us all the problems in MN. And that goes for the BS about the Canadian Lynx also.
I would suspect the science that was presented to the Judge was overruled by the little lady of the house that made reference to His Honor may find sleeping on the couch a reality unless her social club full of bunny hugger's get their way.
Wait, what am I saying! That's not the way the system works
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
My thread drift is all Gbro's fault: There was a public hearing about the use of 1080 poison cartridges in coyote trapping. I think in Denver, but I won't swear to it.
At any rate, one quite elderly little woman offers her opinion that instead of trapping, the male coyotes should be live-trapped and neutered.
Unfortunately for the decorum of the meeting, Slim Pickens was there. He commented rather firmly, "Ma'am, the problem ain't that the coyotes are raping the sheep; they're eating them."
A cynic, upon hearing that lady's comment, might come to consider the notion that there is derangement inovolved in wildlife issues, and it's contagious. Where is H. L. Mencken, now that we really need him?
At any rate, one quite elderly little woman offers her opinion that instead of trapping, the male coyotes should be live-trapped and neutered.
Unfortunately for the decorum of the meeting, Slim Pickens was there. He commented rather firmly, "Ma'am, the problem ain't that the coyotes are raping the sheep; they're eating them."
A cynic, upon hearing that lady's comment, might come to consider the notion that there is derangement inovolved in wildlife issues, and it's contagious. Where is H. L. Mencken, now that we really need him?
re:Roy R
Your link on post 119 left out the red wolf.
However I noticed a wolf recovery plan for the New England states, north east US (Eastern timber wolf) that I had not known of last I did
a wolf recovery plan study they (the Feds) were focused on the Idaho - Wyoming - Montana wolf recovery, New Mexico and Arizona ( Mexican wolf) and Red wolf in the southeast.
Here is a Defenders of wildlife link on the red wolf - very pro wolf group.
http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/red_wolf.php
When I lived in Virginia I read Defenders of Wildlife news. All the poor coyotes in the west were being hunted to death- no mercy, (they said.) Then I moved west and heard the coyote song everywhere. D of W are hoakey to me now. They get lots of money from city people for the wolf program. City people like me in Virginia, who believe the things I had read... until I went west and learned a different song from experience and living the life, not reading about it in a book.
I rode shotgun with my husband when we married. One guy was killing a moose, Gene gets out of the PU to check the deal and says to me, if I get in trouble get out with the shotgun. Do I get training? Do we have time for training?
...but what if I hit you? I am better off if you shoot the gun than not if I get in trouble, he says to me.
I told Gene you wanted links to my stories. He told me I interviewed the guy in the field who had the experience and that makes it a first hand account, and I would be the link, or source. I guess most wives in the US do not ride shotgun for their Fish and Game husband. It was not unusual then, because our back country sherrif deputy had his wife ride shotgun for him, but she got gun training on the range. Maybe I should have married a cop?
Your link on post 119 left out the red wolf.
However I noticed a wolf recovery plan for the New England states, north east US (Eastern timber wolf) that I had not known of last I did
a wolf recovery plan study they (the Feds) were focused on the Idaho - Wyoming - Montana wolf recovery, New Mexico and Arizona ( Mexican wolf) and Red wolf in the southeast.
Here is a Defenders of wildlife link on the red wolf - very pro wolf group.
http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/red_wolf.php
When I lived in Virginia I read Defenders of Wildlife news. All the poor coyotes in the west were being hunted to death- no mercy, (they said.
) Then I moved west and heard the coyote song everywhere. D of W are hoakey to me now. They get lots of money from city people for the wolf program. City people like me in Virginia, who believe the things I had read... until I went west and learned a different song from experience and living the life, not reading about it in a book. I rode shotgun with my husband when we married. One guy was killing a moose, Gene gets out of the PU to check the deal and says to me, if I get in trouble get out with the shotgun. Do I get training? Do we have time for training?
...but what if I hit you? I am better off if you shoot the gun than not if I get in trouble, he says to me.
I told Gene you wanted links to my stories. He told me I interviewed the guy in the field who had the experience and that makes it a first hand account, and I would be the link, or source. I guess most wives in the US do not ride shotgun for their Fish and Game husband. It was not unusual then, because our back country sherrif deputy had his wife ride shotgun for him, but she got gun training on the range. Maybe I should have married a cop?
counting Idaho elk
Gene would fly in the winter to get an elk count. There was always a fudge factor, because the elk in the timber can not be seen of course. We wanted 25 bulls per 100 cows. We had 17, then 9 , our count dropped at every count. I think they flew about every other year. This was in the late 1980-'s-1990's.
We rode horses and packed in, Gene with his Idaho decker, and me with my sawbuck pack saddle. Our biggest fights were over wich way to pack a horse was best, LOL> Up Kelly Creek in the spring we went, and Weitas. Gene told of seeing 200 elk in the meadows. Snow was still in the higher mountains. I saw maybe 25-35 elk. Over time our spring rides the elk count dropped to 3-5. This was before the wolf introduction.
Idaho had few elk in the early 1900's. In the 1930's F and G brought them in on box cars from Yellowstone. Our herds grew, maybe peaked in 1950, then began to drop. In 1988 we still had a lot of elk in the Clearwatrr River drainage. Way more elk than Colorado, where I had come from.
Gene did not like the way the elk were managed, and had an idea how to do things better for long term management. Wolves were brought in on an elk herd struggling to recover. The elk continued to drop. New Game Wardens who replaced Gene after he retired told me our elk counts were better than they had ever been. I knew the history, I walked the land, and I knew better.
My environmentalist friends told me the elk have never been better. Wolves recover healthy elk herds, they told me. I don't know; perhaps this is the politically correct story?
When wolves came to the Clearwater from Canada, Gene was at the end of his career, ands ready to retire. The new officer told us he could not talk about wolves, or the wolf- elk impact for 5 years. Does this mean a gag order was issued? Perhaps it is all hearsay?
I am not good at gag orders. It was a good time to retire.
Gene would fly in the winter to get an elk count. There was always a fudge factor, because the elk in the timber can not be seen of course. We wanted 25 bulls per 100 cows. We had 17, then 9 , our count dropped at every count. I think they flew about every other year. This was in the late 1980-'s-1990's.
We rode horses and packed in, Gene with his Idaho decker, and me with my sawbuck pack saddle. Our biggest fights were over wich way to pack a horse was best, LOL> Up Kelly Creek in the spring we went, and Weitas. Gene told of seeing 200 elk in the meadows. Snow was still in the higher mountains. I saw maybe 25-35 elk. Over time our spring rides the elk count dropped to 3-5. This was before the wolf introduction.
Idaho had few elk in the early 1900's. In the 1930's F and G brought them in on box cars from Yellowstone. Our herds grew, maybe peaked in 1950, then began to drop. In 1988 we still had a lot of elk in the Clearwatrr River drainage. Way more elk than Colorado, where I had come from.
Gene did not like the way the elk were managed, and had an idea how to do things better for long term management. Wolves were brought in on an elk herd struggling to recover. The elk continued to drop. New Game Wardens who replaced Gene after he retired told me our elk counts were better than they had ever been. I knew the history, I walked the land, and I knew better.
My environmentalist friends told me the elk have never been better. Wolves recover healthy elk herds, they told me. I don't know; perhaps this is the politically correct story?
When wolves came to the Clearwater from Canada, Gene was at the end of his career, ands ready to retire. The new officer told us he could not talk about wolves, or the wolf- elk impact for 5 years. Does this mean a gag order was issued? Perhaps it is all hearsay?
I am not good at gag orders. It was a good time to retire.
I *LOVE* wolves. I don't fear them and I think they are needed in Nature.
I don't live near wolves. So I've never been threatened by any them and I don't raise cattle so I don't directly feel their presence.
I think it totally stupid to deny the evidence of those who have experienced them at close quarters.
I don't see any reason why a pack of wolves COULD NOT attack and eat a human even if it's not at all commonplace. Would I pay attention if I were in wolf country? Hell yes, I would. I *KNOW* they eat dogs. And if one is by him or herself I think you might be harrassed - especially in winter when more work is required to bring down game.
Interestingly enough, last month while at a Border's in downtown Ann Arbor, MI there was an article in one magazine that had an old photo from 1911 of a killed wolf hanging from a pole. It was 7 ft 11" long, 12.75" across the skull and 185 lbs gutted. The wolf was taken in the Upper Peninsula, Michigan. I was not aware that they got that large. I figured 120 lbs for a male would be an average and maybe 150 lbs for the larger ones in Canada.
There is nothing physical stopping a wolf from successfully bringing down a human. When I would go into the UP I'd be sure to have a plethora of loaded magazines on me and if the trip was planned I significantly increased the amount of shooting drills I'd perform for about three weeks prior due to... wolves and cougar (though cougar has been spotted in the IMMEDIATE Detroit Metro Area and dogs are being killed by coyotes in the IMMEDIATE Detroit Metro Area).
Be safe. Be careful. Be armed. REALLY learn to shoot well and if you must have a dog choose the breed (and bloodlines) carefully.
I don't live near wolves. So I've never been threatened by any them and I don't raise cattle so I don't directly feel their presence.
I think it totally stupid to deny the evidence of those who have experienced them at close quarters.
I don't see any reason why a pack of wolves COULD NOT attack and eat a human even if it's not at all commonplace. Would I pay attention if I were in wolf country? Hell yes, I would. I *KNOW* they eat dogs. And if one is by him or herself I think you might be harrassed - especially in winter when more work is required to bring down game.
Interestingly enough, last month while at a Border's in downtown Ann Arbor, MI there was an article in one magazine that had an old photo from 1911 of a killed wolf hanging from a pole. It was 7 ft 11" long, 12.75" across the skull and 185 lbs gutted. The wolf was taken in the Upper Peninsula, Michigan. I was not aware that they got that large. I figured 120 lbs for a male would be an average and maybe 150 lbs for the larger ones in Canada.
There is nothing physical stopping a wolf from successfully bringing down a human. When I would go into the UP I'd be sure to have a plethora of loaded magazines on me and if the trip was planned I significantly increased the amount of shooting drills I'd perform for about three weeks prior due to... wolves and cougar (though cougar has been spotted in the IMMEDIATE Detroit Metro Area and dogs are being killed by coyotes in the IMMEDIATE Detroit Metro Area).
Be safe. Be careful. Be armed. REALLY learn to shoot well and if you must have a dog choose the breed (and bloodlines) carefully.
We have a library on wolf and grizzly books. * I will come back and list them when I have time. *
The ones that come to mind are Wild AnimalsI have Known,
The one on the Wolves in Russia, at Amazon- ( wolf scat is very toxic and wolves spread disease) also the
Wyoming Game Warden book, Wild Journey, about how studying and handling grizzly by grizzly bear bioligiost has made a man killer out of him in the authors opinion.
*I am dislexic- my spelling needs improvement. *
It is one thing to read about Europe, another to visit, but a third to live there. Happy trails folks.
The ones that come to mind are Wild AnimalsI have Known,
The one on the Wolves in Russia, at Amazon- ( wolf scat is very toxic and wolves spread disease) also the
Wyoming Game Warden book, Wild Journey, about how studying and handling grizzly by grizzly bear bioligiost has made a man killer out of him in the authors opinion.
*I am dislexic- my spelling needs improvement. *
It is one thing to read about Europe, another to visit, but a third to live there. Happy trails folks.
my wolf book list
maybe Of Predations and Life- Paul L Errington ( not really about wolves per say )
Wolves of Isle Royal and /or Wolves of Minong - Durward L. Allen
( wolf populations rise and fall- they go from feast to famine)
Wolves in Russia- Will N. Graves
(wipe out cattle with Hoof and Mouth- wipe out reindeer with disease- come into towns and kill people- kill kids in woods- dig into sheds and kill livestock )
Of Wolves and Men-- Barry Holstun Lopez
( pro- wolf book)
The Wolf- L.David Mech
Hints of Coyote and wolf Trapping- US Dept. of Interior Fish and wildlife Service circular #2 1955
(When I was young my government encouraged us to trap wolves. If wolves were wiped out in the 1930's why would the government teach us how to trap them in 1955 ? )
The Wolf in North American History-Stanley Paul Young
(Jamestown was the first settlement in Virginia, before America was born in 1776. The settlers in Jamestown could not raise sheep in large numbers because of the wolf problem. In 1897 setttlers were greatly annoyed by the wolf who would raid livestock in the middle of the night at their home. )
History has all the answers for the problems of man.
Wolves kill pigs and sheep- goats and lamas- horses- cattle and dogs;
also people when wolves are not hunted. Wolves in Idaho have not been hunted since 1995, for over ten years.
maybe Of Predations and Life- Paul L Errington ( not really about wolves per say )
Wolves of Isle Royal and /or Wolves of Minong - Durward L. Allen
( wolf populations rise and fall- they go from feast to famine)
Wolves in Russia- Will N. Graves
(wipe out cattle with Hoof and Mouth- wipe out reindeer with disease- come into towns and kill people- kill kids in woods- dig into sheds and kill livestock )
Of Wolves and Men-- Barry Holstun Lopez
( pro- wolf book)
The Wolf- L.David Mech
Hints of Coyote and wolf Trapping- US Dept. of Interior Fish and wildlife Service circular #2 1955
(When I was young my government encouraged us to trap wolves. If wolves were wiped out in the 1930's why would the government teach us how to trap them in 1955 ? )
The Wolf in North American History-Stanley Paul Young
(Jamestown was the first settlement in Virginia, before America was born in 1776. The settlers in Jamestown could not raise sheep in large numbers because of the wolf problem. In 1897 setttlers were greatly annoyed by the wolf who would raid livestock in the middle of the night at their home. )
History has all the answers for the problems of man.
Wolves kill pigs and sheep- goats and lamas- horses- cattle and dogs;
also people when wolves are not hunted. Wolves in Idaho have not been hunted since 1995, for over ten years.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
The first wolf I ever saw was courtesy of a taxidermist; in the show window of the "Silverwolf" gun store in Detroit. This was in 1962. Yeah, a "silver" wolf. The forelegs were as thick as my forearms. I'd have to guess from the size that it weighed somewhere toward 150 pounds, live weight. In the store, they said it was from Isle Royale, IIRC. The island in the Great Lakes country with all the wolves.
Seriously impressive.
Seriously impressive.
As a kid in the thumb of michigan, the old farmers would jokinly warn us about the silver wolf that may exist there... Me and my buddy laughed it off as a mythical creature... NOW YA TELL ME!!! Dern glad my 4 foot 60 pound self didn't cross paths with a hungry one!
Brent
Dern glad my 4 foot 60 pound self didn't cross paths with a hungry one!Brent
Playboypenguin
Moderator
I am still waiting for just one person to provide information where any one presents a study of wildlife populations including all environmental factors including wolf reintroduction and the effects on herd populations. All these groups are claiming the government ones are lies, so why have they not found anything to contradict them other than "He said/I saw" stories with no real merit. They certainly could afford to do so with all the money they are spending.
I would also even accept any report stating official livestock loss numbers for ranchers (ie: tax returns) pre and post wolf introduction correlated with environmental data.
These claims are easily shown through real data so you have to ask yourself why the data doesn't exist. If your answer is "guberment conspiracy" I think you need to find another answer.
Someone please PM me if anyone comes up with such factual information.
I would also even accept any report stating official livestock loss numbers for ranchers (ie: tax returns) pre and post wolf introduction correlated with environmental data.
These claims are easily shown through real data so you have to ask yourself why the data doesn't exist. If your answer is "guberment conspiracy" I think you need to find another answer.
Someone please PM me if anyone comes up with such factual information.
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