With links this time!

[madmag]

Touchy subject matter, 9 pages, not locked, reasonably civil and still close to on subject.......surely that is getting close to some kind of record.

I think those of us against illegal immigration deserve special credit for being so patient with the (un-named) illegal support faction.

 

[JuanCarlos]

There is no government legislation forcing adults to learn spanish. None whatsoever. Yes, children in school are required to learn a foreign language and damn well should be. No child should graduate high school without the ability to communicate with someone that doesn't speak english. Anything less is detrimental to our status as the world's most advanced nation.

Is a foreign language actually required nowadays? When I graduated back in the '90s (in Phoenix) most universities required it for entrance, but you could graduate high school without bothering to take a foreign language.

While I do feel that one should have an understanding of the english language before being allowed to drive one does not need to be proficient in the language to know the rules of the road because they're all available in various languages. Speaking fluent english does not make one a better driver. I don't mind if an immigrant is allowed to take a test in his native language if that will be a better indication of whether or not he understood the material.

I can think of a few limited examples where a lack of knowledge of English might lead to issues on the road. One that always comes to mind are the signs above 7th Street (or is it 7th Avenue?) in Phoenix towards downtown...the center lane switches to a thru-traffic lane during the rush hours, and no left turns are allowed. The signs are in English, and I imagine their meaning would not be easily deduced without some knowledge of the language. If somebody can't read them and pulls into the center lane to make a left turn (like pretty much any other center lane in the city, or that lane during non-rush hours) you're looking at a head-on collision.

I'm not saying that mastery of the English language is necessary, but a firm grasp of some of the words that they might commonly run into on signs (and that goes beyond "stop" or "yield" whether or not you realize it as an English speaker) should be required...not all signs are pictographs. Including some fairly important ones.

Doesn't work that way. We all chip in to pay for things we don't all agree with. I don't like my tax dollars being used to invade sovereign nations but it happens. I don't like my tax dollars taking care of retirees but it happens. I don't like my tax dollars being used to arrest potheads but it happens. Some people don't like their tax dollars funding the space program but it happens.

Amen, brother.

When it was suggested we put Troops on the border, and not Meter Maids

I take serious offense at the idea of putting troops on the border, for a multitude of reasons. One, while calling it an "invasion" makes for good rhetoric, in reality all you have is a bunch of people breaking immigration laws and that's a police matter not a military one. Two, the use of the military for such tasks often (in my experience) amounts to a convenient way to get the job done cheaper, since they don't have to pay us overtime or give us silly things like days off. I've seen it on forest fire duty, I've heard about it second hand regarding border mobilizations. It's one thing to do it in an emergency, such as a natural disaster...it's another to do it because you've failed to foresee the need (or failed to secure funding) for more Border Patrol agents.

Every National Guard unit that goes down to the border to do whatever menial tasks they have them doing for their AT is a unit that is not training. Which is what the "T" in AT stands for.

 

[Rangefinder]

while calling it an "invasion" makes for good rhetoric, in reality all you have is a bunch of people breaking immigration laws and that's a police matter not a military one.

Except when those imigration laws being broken involve a large-scale breech of international boundaries--that places it on a federal level, within the realm of national security. Unless I'm mistaken, one of the original purposes behind the National Guard was to protect the US at and within the national border (contrary to the current issues that are sending them all over the planet as Regular Army).

 

[JuanCarlos]

Except when those imigration laws being broken involve a large-scale breech of international boundaries--that places it on a federal level, within the realm of national security. Unless I'm mistaken, one of the original purposes behind the National Guard was to protect the US at and within the national border (contrary to the current issues that are sending them all over the planet as Regular Army).

Except that these people are not acting on behalf of another nation, and (generally) have no intent to do anybody direct harm. They are not soldiers, spies, or terrorists. At which point you simply have thousands of individuals breaking the law (and a nonviolent offense at that). Because it spans multiple states, and has effects reaching across the country I can see making it a federal matter. But it is a federal law enforcement matter, not a military one. If only there was some sort of federal law enforcement agency that could be expanded to take care of such things.

Of course, unlike the National Guard most law enforcement bodies have to give their agents silly things like days off and possibly overtime.

 

[Rangefinder]

They are not soldiers, spies, or terrorists.

That could be debated. Agreed, 99% might not be. But with so many people making it across the border daily, what is stopping terrorists from using the same methods to enter the country? And given the scale of Central American gang affiliates entering in large numbers, I could easily consider that a definition of an aggressive, marginally organized force with hostile intent infultrating our soil.

 

[JuanCarlos]

They are not soldiers, spies, or terrorists.

That could be debated. Agreed, 99% might not be. But with so many people making it across the border daily, what is stopping terrorists from using the same methods to enter the country?

Absolutely nothing. Of course, the same applies to the Canadian border. But again, the minute number of potential terrorists who might try to disappear among illegal immigrants isn't an argument for using the military for border enforcement anymore than the idea that terrorists might hijack an airplane is an argument for replacing the TSA with military forces for airport security.

Not that I'm any fan of the TSA...but the idea of replacing them with soldiers is preposterous, no?

And given the scale of Central American gang affiliates entering in large numbers, I could easily consider that a definition of an aggressive, marginally organized force with hostile intent infultrating our soil.

Hostile towards our government? Or just criminals (of the violent persuasion)? Last I checked Central American gangs weren't making armed incursions into our country with the intent of either destabilizing our government or taking control of territory. They were more into things like distributing drugs. So again, law enforcement matter, not national defense. Unless I'm wrong, and feel free to throw me some links if that's the case.

 

[Redworm]

When that place is Walmart, Home Depot, the grocerie store down the street, etc---I have a problem with it. When my bank has more spanish-speaking people as customers as well as employees than they do English-speaking or even bi-lingual, I have a problem with it. When local businesses are changing the language base to cater to and attract business ($$$) from a source that consists primarily of individuals here ILLEGALLY---yup, you guessed it---I have a problem with it.

Fighting illegal imigration doesn't begin with gov't action---it begins within lidividuals like ourselves, and within the private sector and works its way up to the top. Every law in the country isn't going to be very effective if the private sector keeps making it easy and attractive for them to be here.

With all due respect you're choosing to shop at Walmart and Home Depot so if you're finding yourself surrounded with a funny language you don't like you have no one to blame but yourself. There are plenty of other big box stores out there, plenty of other hardware stores. Go to Target or Lowes. Go to K-Mart or Ace Hardware. Still too much Spanish? Sorry; the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and if there are more spanish speakers in your area than non-spanish speakers you're just going to have to deal with it or move.

As for your bank, are you suggesting that the tellers don't speak english? I highly doubt that. I don't see what the problem is with a bank teller being bilingual so the bank can cater to that market.

Your idea that the primary source of hispanic business comes from illegals is unbased and inaccurate.

Fighting illegal immigration does start at the government. That's the government's job. Your error seems to be in lumping in all hispanics with illegals. You want businesses to stop catering to the legal hispanics as well because you either erroneously believe they're all really illegal or you don't like having to share your country with another culture. If it's the former then your argument is misled and I hope you understand that there are plenty of natural born American citizens that speak spanish and prefer to do their business in their native tounge. If it's the latter then I hope you realize that America is not a WASP-only country.

 

[Redworm]

Redworm, Do you know when and where this happened? Not saying it didn't happen, but I try to follow the Minuteman activities and I do not remember this incident.

You're right, reports of that have been largely unfounded so I would like to point out that I'm not accusing minutemen of actually opening fire on illegals. That doesn't change the fact that I'm wary of that very thing happening.

 

[DasBoot]

And if I lived in the area I would write Chevron and ask to have them put back. I like reading in Spanish.

So move to Spanish speaking country and have fun.

Charging Mexico for the problems caused by the citizen of Panama would not only be counter-productive but it would just plain stupid foreign policy.

Good point.
Than deduct the costs from whatever, if any, aid we are giving to persons country of origin.
If they refuse to tell us, just ship him off to the nearest country in the direction from where he came.
Do that enough times and THAT country will become tougher on their borders.

Now if you first improve that immigration policy and then deport the ones that are here illegally it's far more likely they'll try to get in through the proper channels

So while reform is winding it's way through Congress, how many more thousands of ILLEGALs ar e you comfortable with getting in?
Some people are just plain weak.
Oh no! Putting soldiers on the border might send the wrong message or offend someone.
And what might that message be?
That we don't want you're ILLEGAL ass over here and our militarty is going to see to it that you don't get it.
Our resident enablers are doing their best again to find fault in,or mimimize , anything suggested to combat this invasion.
YES...INVASION!
Just because it's not a massive assault at one time, but dragged out over time by millions of ILLEGALs, it's still and invasion.

With all due respect you're choosing to shop at Walmart and Home Depot so if you're finding yourself surrounded with a funny language you don't like you have no one to blame but yourself. There are plenty of other big box stores out there, plenty of other hardware stores. Go to Target or Lowes. Go to K-Mart or Ace Hardware. Still too much Spanish? Sorry; the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and if there are more spanish speakers in your area than non-spanish speakers you're just going to have to deal with it or move.

This epitomizes the attitude of the enemy within.
How DARE any of us want to maintain our culture as it has been.
These are the same people that advocate not teaching about the Holocaust in school because it might offend Moslems.
This guy actually seems a little upset that I was able to get those Chevron signs changed.
Wars are won by winning multiple battles.
It's nice to know there are those amongst us that will stick out their foot whever possible so we can stumble in our efforts.
I'm not using names because I don't want to seem like I'm "bashing" anyone.
I know how sensitive some of you are.:barf:
So, enablers, you're posts force me to backtrack to the very beginnings of this post and ask, can you point us to any links,writtings, surveys, studies, etc that show the POSITIVE aspects, for America, of ILLEGAL immigration?
You didn't come up with anything of merit then.
I suppose the same will hold true now.

 

[RERICK]

So, enablers, you're posts force me to backtrack to the very beginnings of this post and ask, can you point us to any links,writings, surveys, studies, etc that show the POSITIVE aspects, for America, of ILLEGAL immigration

?


There is nothing positive about it. Period. If this offends you, to bad. That is how I feel and I say this not to offend any one but it is just the way I see it.It is huge mess and I think what did it for me was when I heard the Bank of America gave illegals credit cards. Yeah Yeah I'm a racist bla bla bla


http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...905_RTRUKOC_0_US-BOFA-CARD.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

 

[rem33]

Sorry; the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

This kinda sounds like a quote to me. Mind if I ask who or where you get this one from? is it Lenin or Marx or just who first said this?

Two years ago I was working with a guy that had Just moved to Wa from Ca. Where he was working in Ca everyone was speaking Spanish using radios. He ask " can we speak English so I know whats being said" the response was " ya need to learn to speak Spanish" he moved. Said mildly, I find this unacceptable in the USA.

 

[Redworm]

So move to Spanish speaking country and have fun.

Why? I'm perfectly happy here. I'm happy with spanish being spoken here. I'm not going to suggest you move if you don't like it, however. America is about accepting other cultures and allowing people the freedom to live as they choose.

Good point.
Than deduct the costs from whatever, if any, aid we are giving to persons country of origin.
If they refuse to tell us, just ship him off to the nearest country in the direction from where he came.
Do that enough times and THAT country will become tougher on their borders.

No qualms there. Then again I think all foreign aid needs to be cut entirely but that's not going to happen any time soon.

So while reform is winding it's way through Congress, how many more thousands of ILLEGALs ar e you comfortable with getting in?
Some people are just plain weak.
Oh no! Putting soldiers on the border might send the wrong message or offend someone.
And what might that message be?
That we don't want you're ILLEGAL ass over here and our militarty is going to see to it that you don't get it.
Our resident enablers are doing their best again to find fault in,or mimimize , anything suggested to combat this invasion.
YES...INVASION!
Just because it's not a massive assault at one time, but dragged out over time by millions of ILLEGALs, it's still and invasion.

While it does fit one of the definitions of an "invasion" it's nothing akin to Rome invading Europe or Germany invading Poland or America invading Iraq. There is no organized army fighting battles against our own, none of our territory is being put under foreign control, no one is being captured or slaughtered. Calling this an invasion is like calling a riced up Civic a sports car. Yeah, it technically fits the definition but it's foolish to consider them one in the same.

This epitomizes the attitude of the enemy within.
How DARE any of us want to maintain our culture as it has been.
These are the same people that advocate not teaching about the Holocaust in school because it might offend Moslems.
This guy actually seems a little upset that I was able to get those Chevron signs changed.
Wars are won by winning multiple battles.
It's nice to know there are those amongst us that will stick out their foot whever possible so we can stumble in our efforts.
I'm not using names because I don't want to seem like I'm "bashing" anyone.
I know how sensitive some of you are.
So, enablers, you're posts force me to backtrack to the very beginnings of this post and ask, can you point us to any links,writtings, surveys, studies, etc that show the POSITIVE aspects, for America, of ILLEGAL immigration?
You didn't come up with anything of merit then.
I suppose the same will hold true now.

You can maintain the culture you have all you want. You just can't force someone else to adopt it because you have no right to do so. You're not being forced to abandon your culture or adopt anyone else's because you can choose not to participate in it.

I'm not upset that you got Chevron to change those signs, I simply pointed out that I would have taken the same type of action you did for a different result. If that upsets you, not my problem. But it's what I would have done because I don't mind having multiple languages to read because I can choose which language to read.

It's already been explained how the net benefits of this are too complex for this discussion. A lot people a lot smarter than all of us have been trying to dissect and figure out the economics of it all so it's unlikely anyone here is going to have that magical answer. The point, however, remains that many of the solutions presented - mass deportation, a "papers please" society, using military in a law enforcement matter - are potentially worse than the problem itself.

 

[Redworm]

This kinda sounds like a quote to me. Mind if I ask who or where you get this one from? is it Lenin or Marx or just who first said this?

Surak, founder of modern Vulcan philisophy. I think some guy named John Stuart Mill may have also said it.

It's also true. The lives of ten thousand people are more important than the lives of ten people. Yes, even if my family or myself are one of those of ten. Self preservation is not the strongest instinct in animals; that would be preservation of the species. The main reason we managed to survive so long is because millions of years of evolution have hardwired into our brains the desire to keep the species alive, to keep it growing.

In this case it's all about the community. If three quarters of the community speaks spanish then it's only natural that businesses will cater to that market. It infringes on no rights for a store owner to cater solely to the spanish speaking population.

Two years ago I was working with a guy that had Just moved to Wa from Ca. Where he was working in Ca everyone was speaking Spanish using radios. He ask " can we speak English so I know whats being said" the response was " ya need to learn to speak Spanish" he moved. Said mildly, I find this unacceptable in the USA.

I don't. The business he was working with has the right to conduct its business however it pleases. Personally I find it rude of his coworkers but if he was the only non-spanish speaker in a company of a few dozen people then it certainly doesn't seem disturbing and it's equally as rude for him to expect a few dozen people to cater to his whims.

 

[madmag]

in reality all you have is a bunch of people breaking immigration laws and that's a police matter not a military one.

Good. Then I assume you have no issue with the local police enforcing immigration laws as they are now doing in Mecklenburg CO, NC and other towns across the USA.

 

[sasquatch]

Personally I find it rude of his coworkers but if he was the only non-spanish speaker in a company of a few dozen people then it certainly doesn't seem disturbing and it's equally as rude for him to expect a few dozen people to cater to his whims.

Personally, I find it extremely rude that people would immigrate here, avail themselves to every benefit they can, and not make the effort to learn the language which is the "unofficial" language of this great country. But, maybe that's just me.

My family immigrated here in the late 1900s. They started their own business, and ran it for many years. They spoke no English upon landing here, but they learned the language quickly, and their business was conducted in English.

 

[gdm]

So how long will it be before common stop signs have to be extended in size to accommodate 6 other foreign languages because its unfair to expect anyone to learn the English language while living here,in the US?

 

[rem33]

Well I don't want to bash here but take a look at what has been done in this country the last couple of centuries and look what has happened with our neighbors to the south. This is one primary reason we have such a immigrant problem in the first place. My thinking is when those that come, no matter from where, your coming to America.
Ok, now be an American. Until the last decade or so that was the way it was too. My Hispanic friends are Americans of a different heritage than me but first and foremost we are all Americans. Anything wrong with that?
If this country is allowed to follow the ideals of another country soon that will become part of our standard. Not a good scenario in my book.
It is fairly simple really, "you wanted to come and live in America so now be an American". Remember where and why you came, don't forget your heritage but be an American first now. If you want things to be like they were where you came from, go back there.

Personally, I find it extremely rude that people would immigrate here, avail themselves to every benefit they can, and not make the effort to learn the language which is the "unofficial" language of this great country. But, maybe that's just me.
__________________
Just my 2¢, and it probably ain't worth that.

I'd make that $20 statment at the very least, maybe 10X's that.

 

[Redworm]

Personally, I find it extremely rude that people would immigrate here, avail themselves to every benefit they can, and not make the effort to learn the language which is the "unofficial" language of this great country. But, maybe that's just me.

So do I. However, America is also about having choices and some people choose to be rude.

So how long will it be before common stop signs have to be extended in size to accommodate 6 other foreign languages because its unfair to expect anyone to learn the English language while living here,in the US?

Have you ever seen a road sign in this country in a language other than english?

Even if more languages were to be put on them they wouldn't need to be enlarged. It's a moot point because a red octagon is recognized all over the world as a stop sign. It could be completely blank and anyone that drives in a UN member nation will know what it means.

How about at the end of this century? What if more than half of America is spanish speaking? Wouldn't it make sense to cater to the majority?

 

[Redworm]

Well I don't want to bash here but take a look at what has been done in this country the last couple of centuries and look what has happened with our neighbors to the south. This is one primary reason we have such a immigrant problem in the first place. My thinking is when those that come, no matter from where, your coming to America.
Ok, now be an American. Until the last decade or so that was the way it was too. My Hispanic friends are Americans of a different heritage than me but first and foremost we are all Americans. Anything wrong with that?
If this country is allowed to follow the ideals of another country soon that will become part of our standard. Not a good scenario in my book.
It is fairly simple really, "you wanted to come and live in America so now be an American".

First of all not everything that has been done in this country in the last couple centuries was a good thing. That's why the country has evolved. The standard two hundred years ago was a place of freedom for only certain individuals. That standard has changed to a place of freedom for everyone.

I somewhat agree with what you're saying. If you're coming here to live and spend a good portion of your life here then yes, you should be an American. However if I moved to France for six months due to a job I wouldn't suddenly become French and thus I don't expect someone that is only planning on being here for a few months or even just a couple of years to consider themselves an American. I do expect them to respect our laws and culture but part of being an American in the first place is allowing others to maintain their own culture.

 

[sasquatch]

America is also about having choices and some people choose to be rude.

So, if they choose to be rude, it is our responsiblity to cater to them?

I don't think so.