Will a 12 Gauge Loaded with BB Shot Stop a Man Effectively??

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One of my Troops took 3 rds from a .50 in VN. They didn't think he'd survive, he came home in a full body cast, and he's got so many scars from surgeries that he looks like he'd been attacked by sharks but here it is 40 yrs later and he's still alive doing fine.
 
I don't recommend birdshot for self defense but don't minimize the effect and devastation it can cause at normal room sizes. It's very deadly. The downside to using birdshot for defense is it loses it's velocity quickly.
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ISP sums it up quite well, and helps explain the varied anecdotes. Much depends on distance and shot size. Up close, any size shot will work fairly well, the farther away you get the less likely it is to work.
 
My cousin was shot three times with 00 buck from less than 50 yds. He was badly hurt but recovered. Nothing is 100%.
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And at "less than 50 yards" (I'm assuming it was close to 50 since that was your measurement) birdshot would have hurt even less.

Buckshot is not a terribly good 50 yard performer given most loads and most guns. All shot spreads. Round balls have poor SD and lose energy quickly.

50 yards is slug territory.

Glad your cousin recovered.
 
"The problem with defensive shootings is you don't get to pick and choose your combat distances. "

In your home, you DO get to choose your distance! Smaller shot should work well.

LEOs don't get to choose, so buckshot is in order.
What cops need/use is completely different from the average citizen.
 
An interesting link to ballistic testing of shot pellets:

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

They got 11" of penetration with BB at 3 yards ( the FBI recommends 12" min )

So, it is not quite up to FBI standards but still much more than regular bird shot like #4, which penetrated only 6", or #8 which only penetrated 4.5"

Still for me, I would consider #4 buckshot the mininum with 00 being even better.
 
There are many variables, as others point out, proximity being pivotal. There is a big difference between gelatin, targets and drug/alcohol/mentally derranged attackers. Though I have seen several lethal "birdshoot" wounds, none were beyond 3 yards, most 1 yard or less, and all were solid torso or head shots.

Though I understand the legitimate concern for overpenetration in certian circumstances, there is no free lunch, less penetration will pertain to all strutures.
 
I also would consider #4 buck the minimum. I have some 3-inch magnums that have 41 pellets of #4 buck. In my house I would be firing between screaming wife and 4 dogs. The 4 dogs would be all over BG so I go with some slugs first, then 3-inch 00-buck in 12ga. Bear problems preclude the #4 buck option.
 
"NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

No.

Birdshot is for birds.

I would likely stop them, but why bother with likely when you, or more importantly your FAMILY'S, asses are on the line."

Mr. Wilson:
He has never seen anyone shot with birdshot.
He doesn't know what he is talking about.
Yet he speaks nonetheless.
 
Clint Smith

I believe the article was in last month's Handgunner. Something about bargain shotguns IIRC. He also said the same thing on an episode of PDTV titled "using what you have". I would rather have a defensive load that fragmented and transferred a lot of energy than a load that penetrated excessively. Ask any paramedic, the lungs are easily reached with a 3" needle, less than 5 to the heart. If I were concerned with overpenetration of my walls and endangering my family and friends, I would load big birdshot, pick my fields of fire carefully, and not worry. This picture shows the light #4 Buck going through 3 interior walls. Same for the #1. The 00 goes through 3 to 4 walls. The slug would be in my neighbors kitchen. A pistol round is bad enough.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
In my house that's well into my son's room from anywhere I might fire. If I lived alone on a big lot it might be different. My needs may not be the same as yours.
 
Kinda sums up my feelings exactly. For inside my house, I won't use anything bigger than #4 buck. But, if you live in an apartment with thin walls, you might want to go smaller. If you live next to a supermax prison with a narcoleptic squad of guards, you might want to use triple aught buck and keep Ma Duece on a tripod in the hallway. Just depends on what ya need.
 
birdshot would slow him down, don't know if it would stop him. I agree with the comment above, I wouldnt want to risk my families safety with ineffective ammo
 
Ask any paramedic, the lungs are easily reached with a 3" needle, less than 5 to the heart.
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Being able to reach those organs is one thing. Being able to cause enough damage to incapacitate an attacker is another thing. Just pointing that out.
 
Since many of you have apparently not shot a shotgun, I can tell you this:
A magnum load of 12 ga. BB shot at close (HD) range will blow a large hole very nearly through a man. "But-what about the FBI's recommended 12" of penetration? What if his arm is in the way?"
He won't have an arm-at least much of one, anyway-and there will be a large, deep hole behind what is left of his arm.
I find it comical that people can not comprehend this!
If, for some miraculous reason a shot like this did not instantaneously render an attacker immobile, I can guarantee he will be going in the other direction-not towards you.
 
00 buckshot works well for most self defense shooting needs. Why mess around with lighter weight shot in the first place? For anybody to survive ANY kind of shooting with a 12 guage shotgun is very unusual. Strange that a suspect get hits with a load of birdshot at close range and lives. I would guess that the suspect did not directly take the shot head on but was hit with a glancing shot.
 
Since many of you have apparently not shot a shotgun, I can tell you this:
A magnum load of 12 ga. BB shot at close (HD) range will blow a large hole very nearly through a man. "But-what about the FBI's recommended 12" of penetration? What if his arm is in the way?"
He won't have an arm-at least much of one, anyway-and there will be a large, deep hole behind what is left of his arm.
I find it comical that people can not comprehend this!
If, for some miraculous reason a shot like this did not instantaneously render an attacker immobile, I can guarantee he will be going in the other direction-not towards you.
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You got it right!

Folks, you gotta remember that a 12 gauge load of birdshot has 1.25 ounces of lead in it. At ranges less than 20 feet, there isn't much spread, it is all pretty much together. The impact of that load won't go un-noticed. Yes, I have seen the damage this will do to critters at close range, but I have never seen a man shot with a shotgun (and hope never to).

To answer your question directly. Yes, if you can hit your target in the right spot.

Are there better choices of shot size for HD? Yes.
 
And I've posted before I had a high school friend who got half his head blown off from bird shot, or enough of it he lived on life support for only 3 hours. Until I see something different in RL which contradicts that experience I'll keep to my own opinions before being swayed by folks on an internet forum, no matter how well intentioned they believe they are. Sorry, seen the results first hand.
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Range is everything.
A blank close enough would easily have done the same thing.
Heads are not designed to contain 15,000 PSI pressures.

Ever read Jeff Cooper's account of someone who committed suicide with a blank from a center fire rifle?

Small shot looses energy very rapidly.
I have been peppered from the other side of the lake.
Annoying but not especially dangerous (and why you always wear suitable eye protection).
An ex-girlfriends father was hit from about 50 feet with a load of bird shot.
It took plastic surgery to clean all the pellets out, but he was just fine.
It did ruin the jacket he had on though.
 
Birdshot is for birds.
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:rolleyes:
And 50 BMG is an anti-material round. But it still kills you just as well.

At greater distances buckshot will be more effectice, but at "inside the house" distances, birdshot will work effectively, almost like buckshot but without the overpenetration.

Lots of bad guys killed with "birdshot". I dont know of anyone that got popped with it at close range and still managed to fight back. Alive? Maybe, sure. But there wont be much fight left in him after a center mass hit with ANY 12 ga round at close range.

FerFAL
 
I wish we could just put this to bed!

Honestly folks,

If your scattergun is loaded with birdshot, take the shot. Beyond that the following is hard fought truth.

At close quarters and contact distance ALL shot will perform about the same. We are talking 10 ft and closer. Beyond that disance the energy retention of small shot is UNEXCEPTABLE for use against human and larger targets.

Most of you take exception when I continue to rant about "rule #1 have a gun with in reason any gun will do", you all protest about enough rounds and effective "stopping power" in your pistols. Yet some of you are willing to carry Less in one of the most effective stoppers in your weapons arsenal! I am confused by the contradiction!

By the way, birdshot is used in training classes to save the gun and shooters shoulder. Take no other reference from that fact.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
Clint Smith recommends birdshot for dealing with Bubba down the hallway. There are others who think it's fine for home defense with penetration being the concern.

I wouldn't feel too bad off with birdshot, but prefer buck, and when I leave the house, it's buck or slugs.
 
Nnobby45

Please tell me that was a miss print! Clint is recommending birdshot!!!!!! If that is the case, I recommend not taking his advise. I have worked with Clint and he is a God with a carbine and pistol, I have never seen any of his stuff for shotgun, birdshot for bad guys is a BAD idea no matter from who's lips it comes from.
 
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