Why the fuss over all metal frames?
- Thread starter fisherman
- Start date
There are a lot of polymer framed guns out there that are over 30 years old, even more over 20. It would be interesting to learn from the Austrian Army or any of the law enforcement agencies how long the actual service life of Glocks has been.
Of course Glock upgrades and there are new generations of Glock designs. M&P designs for that matter.
It's also the case that the slides are all steel and that the parts of the frame that interact with the slide, the rails, are also steel. So what's to worry about?
The frame surrounds the metal of the frame and holds it in place. The frame flexes when fired. It has to do that.
I have yet to read a thread that said that their M&P or their Glock frame cracked or fell apart in their hands like the plastic parts of an old broom left too long in the sun.
A Glock frame will outlast the plastic dashboard of your truck.
Here's a test: buy a new Glock and use it as you'd use any gun. Come back in 30 years and tell us how it's doing.
tipoc
Of course Glock upgrades and there are new generations of Glock designs. M&P designs for that matter.
It's also the case that the slides are all steel and that the parts of the frame that interact with the slide, the rails, are also steel. So what's to worry about?
The frame surrounds the metal of the frame and holds it in place. The frame flexes when fired. It has to do that.
I have yet to read a thread that said that their M&P or their Glock frame cracked or fell apart in their hands like the plastic parts of an old broom left too long in the sun.
A Glock frame will outlast the plastic dashboard of your truck.
Here's a test: buy a new Glock and use it as you'd use any gun. Come back in 30 years and tell us how it's doing.
tipoc
Thanks for all the replies. It is an interesting topic and I loved the scientist, the engineer, the good ole boy, the machinist, the mechanic and the reloader/dedicated shooter's comments. Best I can tell is: Buy anything you want, if you like it keep shooting it. If you don't like it, put in in your collection and buy another one you might like. The more you buy the better the gun makers do and the better they do, the better off we all are.
A related test that won't take you 30 years to answer: Ask yourself which 80's or 90's production plastic pistols you are looking to buy for your personal use today. For actual use, not as an oddball collector piece.
The last few pistols I purchased were made in the 70's, 80's, and 90's (ranging in condition from surplus to LNIB). All are for active shooting/carrying in the present day. They will become more desirable with time, and my kids will be proud to shoot them. None were exceptionally high-dollar pistols, when new, but their reputation has increased with time. It goes without saying that none of them have plastic frames.
The last new pistol I purchased was a Glock, some time around 2015 -- it works well and I expect it will function for a long time, but in 20 years it will be neither the "latest and greatest," nor will it represent inspired work from the 2010's. It will not have collapsed in value, but it will most likely be regarded an item for the bargain bin, along with the dozens of other used, plastic pistols that are really, really similar.
Just because something is older and metal doesn't mean it will grow in value, as is true of plenty of firearms today. They're really not great investments. There is a resurgence of interest in classic firearms currently, but that's largely in part because of their use in wars and history. This is not to mention many of them being very affordable because of them being mass produced and then being liquidated by countries that don't really care how much they get back out of them. Does that mean that in a few decades no one will care about the current pistols or rifles simply because they have polymer frames and handguards? I don't think we can say that for sure.
Now will your kids and grandkids appreciate them? Likely they will as a result of you spending time with them and those pistols. Then they become nostalgic. You'll also likely explain to them your love of them because of their metal construction and that's an attitude they may adopt as well. Is nostalgia impossible with polymer? Maybe. But seeing as plenty of people go around buying classic video games and consoles, all things made of plastic, it doesn't seem like nostalgia is completely tied to construction materials. There are a bunch of kids learning to shoot on rifles and pistols with polymer stocks and frames these days (not to mention those stocks being common in competition rifles). Will those kids really not care at all about the memories attached to those firearms simply because of the construction?
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Now will your kids and grandkids appreciate them? Likely they will as a result of you spending time with them and those pistols. Then they become nostalgic. You'll also likely explain to them your love of them because of their metal construction and that's an attitude they may adopt as well. Is nostalgia impossible with polymer? Maybe. But seeing as plenty of people go around buying classic video games and consoles, all things made of plastic, it doesn't seem like nostalgia is completely tied to construction materials. There are a bunch of kids learning to shoot on rifles and pistols with polymer stocks and frames these days (not to mention those stocks being common in competition rifles). Will those kids really not care at all about the memories attached to those firearms simply because of the construction?
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Related to my previous test: how many Gen one or two Glocks do you see for sale in the used, consignment, gun racks and at what prices?
Well the prices will be low. But they have always been low compared to steel framed and alloy guns. Lower cost of production equals higher rate of profit and so they proliferate.
Gen 3 Glocks are very common on the used market. Most run as well as they ever did. Sell for less, they work, easy to maintain and so are popular.
This question was settled 20 years ago.
Steel and aluminum framed guns are here as well. They are not going away in our lifetimes. A gun made with a metal frame does not make it useful or desirable in and of itself.
tipoc
Well the prices will be low. But they have always been low compared to steel framed and alloy guns. Lower cost of production equals higher rate of profit and so they proliferate.
Gen 3 Glocks are very common on the used market. Most run as well as they ever did. Sell for less, they work, easy to maintain and so are popular.
This question was settled 20 years ago.
Steel and aluminum framed guns are here as well. They are not going away in our lifetimes. A gun made with a metal frame does not make it useful or desirable in and of itself.
tipoc
HighValleyRanch
New member
well, I sold my 1st generation glock 17 for 650.00 a couple of months ago, so they are not as low as you think! The pistol was well worn down to the matt tennifer, and the frame worn to a glossy finish from all the use. It still had it's original black parts. The guy that bought it was going to treasure it as a collectible and not shoot it, as he had other later glock 17's.
I like 1911's .
But ,purely to avoid a caliber argument,in 45 ACP what would you think of a compact/subcompact 7+1 pistol that weighs 20.5 oz and has a MSRP of $479?Thats competitive with the basic Philippine 1911. I'm closer to 70 than I am 60,I'm not concerned about 100 yrs from now.
I'm pretty confident 20 yrs is more than enough. If its in my holster to help me make it to 70 when I need it,I'm happy.
Even with my Milt Sparks Summer Special, I just don't carry the 1911.
I don't have a S+W M+P Shield 2.0 45 ACP,yet. I do have an M+P 9c .
The only CCW pistol that matters is one you can afford and will carry.
The one at the gun store or in the safe won't help you if you are being killed.
That does not preclude enjoying 3 lb handguns at the range.
Guessing from the wall sections the mold cycle time on a polymer handgun frame is probably not over 1 minute gate to gate.And the mold might very well be multi cavity. I'd guess the steel inserts are robot loaded.
Engineering resins are not cheap,but almost none of a polymer frame becomes chips.
Alloy steel is expensve. So are the drills,end mills,and reamers that get dull machining alloy steel.
A CEO of a company I was working for was leading a discussion on "What is Quality?"
Is an all machined and hand mirror polished stainless steel toothbrush for only $579 each Quality?
But ,purely to avoid a caliber argument,in 45 ACP what would you think of a compact/subcompact 7+1 pistol that weighs 20.5 oz and has a MSRP of $479?Thats competitive with the basic Philippine 1911. I'm closer to 70 than I am 60,I'm not concerned about 100 yrs from now.
I'm pretty confident 20 yrs is more than enough. If its in my holster to help me make it to 70 when I need it,I'm happy.
Even with my Milt Sparks Summer Special, I just don't carry the 1911.
I don't have a S+W M+P Shield 2.0 45 ACP,yet. I do have an M+P 9c .
The only CCW pistol that matters is one you can afford and will carry.
The one at the gun store or in the safe won't help you if you are being killed.
That does not preclude enjoying 3 lb handguns at the range.
Guessing from the wall sections the mold cycle time on a polymer handgun frame is probably not over 1 minute gate to gate.And the mold might very well be multi cavity. I'd guess the steel inserts are robot loaded.
Engineering resins are not cheap,but almost none of a polymer frame becomes chips.
Alloy steel is expensve. So are the drills,end mills,and reamers that get dull machining alloy steel.
A CEO of a company I was working for was leading a discussion on "What is Quality?"
Is an all machined and hand mirror polished stainless steel toothbrush for only $579 each Quality?
Well said HiBC. That mirror polished ss tooth brush for $579 dollars is a great analogy. Nice but totally not needed to get a better tooth cleaning. Now my "plastic polymer" gun that is reliable is kind of like the plastic tooth brush. Cheap or inexpensive but totally does the job as well as that stainless steel tooth brush. So go the polymer frames best I can see. If you have to shoot some one with a 9mm stainless steel pistol or a 9mm polymer pistol they will be wounded equally as well or just as dead either way. I like my reliable, repeatable performance polly pistols.
$650 really ain't all that much and the fella was buying what to him was a collectible gun. That he paid that for a well used gun is on him and up to him.
Heck I just spent the same (taxes, dros, state penalty fees, etc.) for a used Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt with a cheap factory faux color case hardened frame. It had been worked over some by a good gunsmith. Birds head grip and a 3 3/4" barrel.
Like I said earlier the question of the durability of polymer framed guns was settled 20 years ago. There's nothing really to debate except to shout at others, loudly, your personal preferences.
tipoc
Heck I just spent the same (taxes, dros, state penalty fees, etc.) for a used Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt with a cheap factory faux color case hardened frame. It had been worked over some by a good gunsmith. Birds head grip and a 3 3/4" barrel.
Like I said earlier the question of the durability of polymer framed guns was settled 20 years ago. There's nothing really to debate except to shout at others, loudly, your personal preferences.
tipoc
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About a decade ago, while trying to dispatch a nice Bass in accordance with my States fish and game laws, I used an old Charter Arms Undercover aluminum frame .38 snub. I didn't shoot it, but pistol whipped the fish, 2 solid, violent whacks in the head with the grip. Deed was done. Dead as Julius Ceasar (or so I thought). Tossed him in the back of the pickup and drove home to fix dinner. Put him in the sink to wash him off prior to filleting... water brought him back to life and he started jumping around like he was possessed! At this point, with two kids watching and begging for mercy, Mr. Fish was put into a bucket of water and released back into the river. No fish that evening. There is zero doubt in my mind that had I been carrying and used a steel frame S&W or Ruger revolver or steel 1911A1 and pistol whipped that fish, I would have eaten him for supper. The thought crossed my mind as well, in a self defense situation, once empty, that aluminum frame snub wouldn't make a very good club against a two or four legged predator. Just no "heft" to it.
Aluminum and or polymer framed handguns do NOT make good bludgeoning weapons. So for me, pertaining to a trail and or CCW hangun, all STEEL is the way to go. I don't mind the extra heft. The added weight helps tame recoil too. That's my 2 cents worth.
Aluminum and or polymer framed handguns do NOT make good bludgeoning weapons. So for me, pertaining to a trail and or CCW hangun, all STEEL is the way to go. I don't mind the extra heft. The added weight helps tame recoil too. That's my 2 cents worth.
MAYBE,in a desperate life and death struggle,anything goes.
If you are in Agri-Biz.the fencing pliers with the hammer built in aer good to have in the truck.Please don't use your steel Colt Single Action Army to beat on barbed wire staples.
If you are the Deputy putting up "Wanted,Dead or Alive" reward posters,I suggest a stapler.Even if your gun is steel.
I don't use the muzzle of a steel barrel for a jack handle.
I don't use a Micrometer for a C-Clamp. Even if its a nice old all steel Lufkin satin chrome with carbide faces.
Killing a fish,huh? That IS a hard one.I've stuck big northerns at the base of the skull,sort of. A chunk of tree can whop then.
I just never had the idea that my gun was a beating iron. Not even my Fanner Fifty.
Now,when you use a steel gun for a hammer,do you hold it by the barrel?
The gun is going to point at you if you do. That's bad.Do you take the bullets out ?
If you are in Agri-Biz.the fencing pliers with the hammer built in aer good to have in the truck.Please don't use your steel Colt Single Action Army to beat on barbed wire staples.
If you are the Deputy putting up "Wanted,Dead or Alive" reward posters,I suggest a stapler.Even if your gun is steel.
I don't use the muzzle of a steel barrel for a jack handle.
I don't use a Micrometer for a C-Clamp. Even if its a nice old all steel Lufkin satin chrome with carbide faces.
Killing a fish,huh? That IS a hard one.I've stuck big northerns at the base of the skull,sort of. A chunk of tree can whop then.
I just never had the idea that my gun was a beating iron. Not even my Fanner Fifty.
Now,when you use a steel gun for a hammer,do you hold it by the barrel?
The gun is going to point at you if you do. That's bad.Do you take the bullets out ?
A disposable plastic toothbrush is indeed a nice analogy. If that's the extent to which you appreciate firearms, of course you'll never want anything other than a plastic frame. Zinc parts will be fine too, so long as they're not in an application where they will fail -- I mean why not?
Imagine a world where you can both appreciate metal firearms and polymer firearms. The madness.
As for zinc, we seem to once again be forgetting that polymer frames have steel inserts in most cases, as well as steel barrels and slides. But sure, we could all use Hi Points. Obviously every polymer pistol is a Hi Point, just like every metal pistol is a Jennings.
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As for zinc, we seem to once again be forgetting that polymer frames have steel inserts in most cases, as well as steel barrels and slides. But sure, we could all use Hi Points. Obviously every polymer pistol is a Hi Point, just like every metal pistol is a Jennings.
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Yes, I unloaded the .38 prior to pistol whipping the Bass. It was an old CHARTER ARMS UNDERCOVER, not my Colt Detective, or S&W 19 Combat Magnum... certainly not a gun I was concerned about scratching. Not that I would pound nails with it, but a fish, yeah, ok... so what? It's just a Charter Arms, nothing special. 